Latex or eco-solvent?

[Vortex37]

We’re wrapping the pads at a football stadium with ads printed on 16 oz scrim blockout. We’ve printed small batches previously on our eco-solvent Roland VS540 and they last 2-3 years with no lam and minimal fading. Now we have a latex HP 365 which prints much faster but I’m wondering if the print will hold up as well in full sun with people body-slamming the graphic on a regular basis. This time we have a large order of 40 or something pads with two 60”x96” panels apiece and we want them to last as long as possible. Would you print latex or eco-solvent and why?

 

[weyandsign]

Solvent lasts longer.

 

[MarkSnelling]

Solvent is better in terms of UV durability, but not by much. I don't think you'll notice much of a difference between the two.

 

[Vortex37]

Thanks for the responses. My boss has decided we’re going to run solvent since we already know how they hold up.

 

[ikarasu]

Curious what makes you guys think solvent is better?

Every printers ink has a different durability rating.... My Epson lists a different expected life then my old Seiko did.


We haven't seen a latex print fade at all yet... we have banners that have been printed 7 years ago still hanging on a building... so I'm surprised a solvents would fade in 2-3. But we're not in a hard environment.


Would be interesting to hear from a Texas type environment that's used to using both!

 

[ikarasu]

I just tried to search and find out.


All the latex sellers say latex lasts longer than solvent, all the solvent sellers say solvent lasts longer than latex ...


Latex is far more scratch resistant than solvent is on banner though.... We find latex is way better for unlaminated items, working with solvent printed banners isn't "bad", but latex is far easier and more forgiving if you drop a straight edge onto it

 

[Solventinkjet]

I just tried to search and find out.


All the latex sellers say latex lasts longer than solvent, all the solvent sellers say solvent lasts longer than latex ...


Latex is far more scratch resistant than solvent is on banner though.... We find latex is way better for unlaminated items, working with solvent printed banners isn't "bad", but latex is far easier and more forgiving if you drop a straight edge onto it

This ^^^

It's hard to sift through the marketing. When solvent came out, the selling point was outdoor durability and "it can print on anything!" Then latex came out and they said "it can print on more things than solvent!" when in reality, in my experience at least, they both hold up about the same and print on the same things. That being said, UV and Latex are probably going to be more common as time moves forward simply for being less toxic.

 

[Vortex37]

We’re in Sacramento, CA so it’s very hot and dry here and things fade fast. I should clarify that our customer replaces the graphic on these every 2-3 years because sponsors change, but we have other 16 oz banners out there that are dark blue that have faded about one whole shade in the swatch book after 3 years in the sun.
I keep seeing these signs that look like they caught on fire - I’ll try to get a photo of one - and I’m wondering if that is latex or solvent? Every time we get a 100+ heat wave I see more of them so I believe it’s heat related. If I can get a pic I’d be curious what others think.

 

[ikarasu]

Most signs that look like they caught on fire are because of people using the wrong materials, especially the wrong overlam, usually it has nothing to do with the ink.... Inks fade, not burn.

Use this as an opportunity, print the same Banner your printing on latex as well and hang it up on your shop roof or on a fence and see which one looks better after a year, 2 years and 3 years.


I printed a decal when we first got are 7 years ago, I didn't laminate it and I threw it out on the door.. it looks just as good today as it did 7 years ago. But I live in rainy vancouver, we do get lots of sun but nothing like California so obviously it'll be a different climate.

We also have a printed license plate that we printed with a latex on reflective materials, been outside for 7 years as well and is holding up just as good as our solvent prints.

The people that grew up with solvent printers have always been under the misconception that latex inks fade faster... But it is likely just due to marketing.

They both have their cons and benefits, but I have a feeling they are both probably pretty equal in longevity

 

[P Wagner]

While it is true that both technologies (solvent and HP Latex) make similar claims (as do their respective channels) re longevity, it is both interesting and enlightening to see what 3rd-party entities like media manufacturers have to say on the topic:

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/graphics-signage-us/resources/warranties/

This link is to the 3M MCS Warranty site, which lists all of the 3M MCS printer manufacturers, the required inks and media combinations, and the duration of the warranty period. 3M MCS Warranty duration for Gen 3 (300 Series) and Gen4 (700/ 800 Series) HP Latex inks is 7 years (on cast films) in most of the USA (with reduced duration in certain areas of the Southwest US). 3M MCS Warranties require lamination on all printers. You can compare this with the warranty durations for the same films on other brands of printers, including Epson, Roland, Mimaki, EFI and others at the link.

 

[unmateria]

We are using ms51 inks now and we are very impressed. I can print much more scratch resistant than old inks, using about 50% ink to saturate on densitometries. Still dont know how they will hold with UV, but about scratching and colours, are awesome

 

[Vortex37]

Now that I think about it, before we printed our own exterior graphics we had a local vendor do them for us. Theirs have been in the same football stadium since 2017, right next to some of our graphics we printed a month later on our solvent printer. Theirs are latex and have held up about as well as ours although theirs look worse because their blue is a little off. I think the key there is they were both the same media - 3M 480 with luster lam. Looking at the charts above we can only expect 5 years from the Roland and 7 from the HP at least where laminated 180/480 is concerned, so guess we’ll see if ours fade first in the next couple of years!

I doubt the manufacturer of our 16 oz banner provides such detailed charts, so it’s hard to say how that performance translates to unlaminated scrim. But the boss wants to keep them on the solvent because we know what to expect. They change sponsors every few years anyway so we know they should last as long as they need to.

It must be the media contributing to all these burned-looking signs. Maybe it’s because so many shops use calendered for everything - we were taught that the heat here is too extreme for calendered on exterior applications that get full afternoon sun. I just thought the vinyl would fail, not look like someone torched it!

 

[ikarasu]

Now that I think about it, before we printed our own exterior graphics we had a local vendor do them for us. Theirs have been in the same football stadium since 2017, right next to some of our graphics we printed a month later on our solvent printer. Theirs are latex and have held up about as well as ours although theirs look worse because their blue is a little off. I think the key there is they were both the same media - 3M 480 with luster lam. Looking at the charts above we can only expect 5 years from the Roland and 7 from the HP at least where laminated 180/480 is concerned, so guess we’ll see if ours fade first in the next couple of years!

I doubt the manufacturer of our 16 oz banner provides such detailed charts, so it’s hard to say how that performance translates to unlaminated scrim. But the boss wants to keep them on the solvent because we know what to expect. They change sponsors every few years anyway so we know they should last as long as they need to.

It must be the media contributing to all these burned-looking signs. Maybe it’s because so many shops use calendered for everything - we were taught that the heat here is too extreme for calendered on exterior applications that get full afternoon sun. I just thought the vinyl would fail, not look like someone torched it!

If your color matching printer to printer is pretty good... I'd print 1 banner on the Latex and put it up with your solvent prints I'm sure your boss would be ok risking 1 banner prematurely fading, and it'd give you guys the peace of mind whether it will work next time or not.

But honestly, we run UV / solvent / Latex / Screen... And in this day and age, I feel like solvent / latex is just as good as screen, UV is the onlyone we wont run longterm jobs on... but we're using old UV tech as well, so I'm sure UV has improved as well. I personally wouldn't worry and would run it on either machine you guys like

 

[Vortex37]

That’s a pretty good idea, she’d totally go for it. Thanks!
We’re using an older UV printer also and those prints in the same football stadium fade within 3 years. We’ve been using liquid laminate on them for a couple years now so I’m interested to see how those hold up. But we may decide that for things like ACM it’s preferable to wrap it if it needs to last long term.