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My left arm for a good employee....

I have had this discussion with multiple sign companies this last week...my advice is to hire the best employees that you can afford.

I have seen this odd patern where business owners hire ppl who have skills that are weaker than their own. When questioned on this & getting through the initial answers & down to the 'nitty gritty' I have heard some surprising 'truths', from biz owners who want to 'help' ppl with their biz & mould them into better ppl in society,to owners who want to use their biz to teach what tey have learned through the yrs, to biz owners who are simply 'afraid' or uncomfortable with having ppl on their staff who know more than they do...

NEWSFLASH! You are the owner, You are not replaceable, You are not going to lose your job. Hire the best employees that you can afford, ESPECIALLY in the areas that you are weaker in.

The other thing I have noticed for many years now as a consultant is business owners who want career minded people but they are not prepared to pay wages that are in line with career minded employees.

I understand the concern about not knowing what you are truly getting until they have worked for you for beyond the 'honeymoon' period & there are multiple ways to protect yourself fom that issue & still make the position attractive to the caliber of employee you are searching for, in most cases it has been my experience that..that is just another excuse ppl tell themselves/others/potential employees/etc to talk themselves out of the reality that to attract superstars you have to offer (and be prepared to pay) a compensation package that will not only attract them..but retain them. Just a sidenote this does not necessarily have to be a high dollar amount, in my experience that is just a part of the equation & based on the individual might not even be the key component.

The other trend I have noticed is business owners with limited technical business acumen who have built fairly successful operations in regards to sales volume who are forced to hire ppl with specialty skills to take them to the next level(or simply maintain what has been created) & they attempt to hire based on what they 'think' the position should pay..which very often is a false reality beeecause they do not put a personal value on that position & have no idea what that position is worth not only to their own business but in the competitive job market. The problem that arises is that you attract people who fill the position but are not the best at the position..i have seen this from receptionists (who often have more contact with clients than anyone else in a business) all the way up to senior management COO,CFO's,etc. We've all seen it .. The company with 'managers' that you wouldn't trust with a pair of roller-skates but for some reason you turn the reins of some area of your business over to these people (often awarding titles in lieu of financial benefits) which many business owners see no harm in not realizing the perception of their clients which is what truly matters.

The other trend I am seeing in this economy & I have witnessed it @ other times in my career for a variety of reasons..but more so now, is hiring ppl @ the top wage that you are prepared to pay or even doing so without realizing it by not periodically awarding increases in pay (raises/bonuses/profit sharing).

As business owners we often forget (or choose to forget) what is important to employees or even what employees expect..and good employees are worth keeping. The reality is that employees if they are continuously employed with your organization they expect increases in pay, it is good employee management to not only expect it but to anticipate it. It is my opinion that the best way to handle this issue is to discuss it @ the time of hire...for example 90 days probation period,followed by a 6 month performance reviewl & then annual performance reviews on your employment anniversary (just an example). And if you have employees continuously employed with your organization who are not deserving of an increase I would be seriously considering their v'ue to your company...i often times see very small companies 'managing' this topic on personal relationships/likeability,etc...and I often times hear myself counselling clients 'that we are lucky to do business with friendly peopl,that does not necessarily make them your friends'..you don't need to 'like' your employees (it makes working together easier) & you shouldt be hiring people to be your new 'potential friends', nor should you be retaining employees or basing their pay / bonuses / raises on their likeability...and the reality is that I see this VERY often.

in my experience it is better to award raises to those who are deserving before they ask for them,they are more appreciative & it eliminates awkwardness,etc. This is simply a cost of doing business which should be planned for, non-sales employees really don't care about slow sales,etc..nor can they usually do anything to correct it..many owners lose the ability to see things from an employees view & expect them to see & understand YOUR business from an owners perspective & that simply is an unrealistic expectation

there are many ppl out there who want to work, there rmany ppl out there who can be trained to be amazing assets to any business, and there are many veterabs for all aspects of any business who can become amazing members of your team..in my opinion it all comes down to having some very honest discussions .. With yourself & with your potential employees. About what you truly need & more importantly what you expect. Many owners forget that this is YOUR business, the reward for an employee is their paycheck & the benefits/compensation package you offer..they are not building equity, an asset that they may be able to sell in the future, etc..it seems many owners temporarily forget that..and the reality is that most of the employees who you encounter who can see the 'big picture' & consider things beyond their own 'job' will most likely become business owners themselves.
 
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phototec

New Member
I have had this discussion with multiple sign companies this last week...my advice is to hire the best employees that you can afford.

I have seen this odd patern where business owners hire ppl who have skills that are weaker than their own.

Biz owners who are simply 'afraid' or uncomfortable with having ppl on their staff who know more than they do...

NEWSFLASH! You are the owner, You are not replaceable, You are not going to lose your job. Hire the best employees that you can afford, ESPECIALLY in the areas that you are weaker in.

The other thing I have noticed for many years now as a consultant is business owners who want career minded people but they are not prepared to pay wages that are in line with career minded employees.


The other trend I am seeing in this economy & I have witnessed it @ other times in my career for a variety of reasons..but more so now, is hiring ppl @ the top wage that you are prepared to pay or even doing so without realizing it by not periodically awarding increases in pay (raises/bonuses/profit sharing).

As business owners we often forget (or choose to forget) what is important to employees or even what employees expect..and good employees are worth keeping. The reality is that employees if they are continuously employed with your organization they expect increases in pay, it is good employee management to not only expect it but to anticipate it.

in my experience it is better to award raises to those who are deserving before they ask for them,they are more appreciative & it eliminates awkwardness,etc.

Many owners forget that this is YOUR business, the reward for an employee is their paycheck & the benefits/compensation package you offer..they are not building equity, an asset that they may be able to sell in the future, etc..it seems many owners temporarily forget that..and the reality is that most of the employees who you encounter who can see the 'big picture' & consider things beyond their own 'job' will most likely become business owners themselves.


Just Another Sign Guy has hit the nail on the head, this is some of the BEST information for employee relations you will ever receive. And is how I have been treated the last 20+ years working for fortune 500 companies.
IMHO

:goodpost: :rock-n-roll: :thumb: :notworthy:
 

neato

New Member
Well, if I was in your neck of the woods, I'd be inclined to take that $15 an hour. That's a fair wage to start at IMO.

But, maybe outsourcing would be a good idea in the meantime. I'm sure you could find a designer willing to work right now for $25-30 an hour. There may even be some smaller shops in your area that are slow and would be willing to help out with installs.

Don't burn yourself out and start hating your business and your life.
 

jfiscus

Rap Master
First-off, I love the advice given above. However, it's making me think that I'm a bit under-valued here where I am employed...

Finding the right person is hard to do. I have tried (and failed) at training assistants (from scratch) for the past couple years. So, I would find someone in the industry or a similar industry that requires minimal training.

Where the pay starts at is all up to you and what you can afford. Their ability to learn & your ability to train is a big part of what happens next.
 

TheSnowman

New Member
I do a TON of subbing stuff out when I can. There's a lot that I can't, but I've started subbing out most of my design work, and a lot of my printing, just so I can manage everything else, and still have a normal life not ruled by my job. I'm not overly busy if I did do some of this in house, but knowing that the work gets done by using good subs, and knowing that your quality isn't going to suffer was a huge part of my business that I didn't get until about a year ago.

Anyone working a ton of hours, hopefully you've evaluated where your time is best spent, and what can make you money while you sleep so you feel good the next day.
 

Craig Sjoquist

New Member
That's funny here in Orlando there is hundreds if not a thousand looking for work in a shop like yours.

Full Sail University pumps them out like peanuts coming out of a 100 lb bag
 

HulkSmash

New Member
Question.

What if you have a decent employee who does decent work, has good ethic, and works well with your team, but at the same time... they're extremely SLOW...
We're finding that we have to let people go, not because they're terrible but because they're so slow they cant keep up with the work load,
or the work they actually do in the time they do it, ends up making me no money.
 
if this is a production employee that we are talking about..the simple reality is that production employees MUST generate a profit. There are two types of employees; money makers and money takers..if you are the later, watch out because your time is limited.

there are positions that it is very easy to gauge if an employee is or is not making you a profit...production would be one of the easiest, non production positions it takes some more serious reflection.

not all employees are superstars (most think that they are) and not all employees are going to be great at every job. There are production jobs where the job just needs to get completed..quickly, and there are production jobs where great attention needs to be paid to detail and quality control...an employee who is very concerned with doing a job absolutely perfectly may not be great at high-speed production tasks and those who are focused soley on getting the job done as rapidly as possible may not be the best at production tasks that require a high level of qc..it is important for management to set employees up for success, this includes matching them to projects that take advantage of their knowledge, skills and even personal traits. this can be very difficult in a small business where everyone needs to wear multiple 'hats' to complete all of the tasks we encounter on a daily basis.

you may have to accept that you don't make a healthy profit margin on certain projects because you are forced to use the workforce that you have but that you make it up on others that exploit an employees skillset. if your work load is primarily comprised of tasks that an employee can not do profitably you need to find someone who can, that doesn't mean the other employee necessarily needs to be terminated, they just need to be paired with projects that they can successfully generate a profit for you.

from your posts i have come to believe that you have a fair grasp on the realities of being in business but just to be safe..have you reviewed your true operating costs somewhat recently? it is absolutely important to know what you need to charge as an hourly rate to be profitable, if you are not charging a correct hourly rate a scenario such as you are describing will bring to your attention (VERY QUICKLY) that it needs to be reviewed. There are many shops who unfortunately do not know what their hourly rate needs to be...even if you charge based on a product price versus an hourly rate you need to know those numbers so that you can charge prices that are profitable.

Question.

What if you have a decent employee who does decent work, has good ethic, and works well with your team, but at the same time... they're extremely SLOW...
We're finding that we have to let people go, not because they're terrible but because they're so slow they cant keep up with the work load,
or the work they actually do in the time they do it, ends up making me no money.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
if this is a production employee that we are talking about..the simple reality is that production employees MUST generate a profit. There are two types of employees; money makers and money takers..if you are the later, watch out because your time is limited.

there are positions that it is very easy to gauge if an employee is or is not making you a profit...production would be one of the easiest, non production positions it takes some more serious reflection.

not all employees are superstars (most think that they are) and not all employees are going to be great at every job. There are production jobs where the job just needs to get completed..quickly, and there are production jobs where great attention needs to be paid to detail and quality control...an employee who is very concerned with doing a job absolutely perfectly may not be great at high-speed production tasks and those who are focused soley on getting the job done as rapidly as possible may not be the best at production tasks that require a high level of qc..it is important for management to set employees up for success, this includes matching them to projects that take advantage of their knowledge, skills and even personal traits. this can be very difficult in a small business where everyone needs to wear multiple 'hats' to complete all of the tasks we encounter on a daily basis.

you may have to accept that you don't make a healthy profit margin on certain projects because you are forced to use the workforce that you have but that you make it up on others that exploit an employees skillset. if your work load is primarily comprised of tasks that an employee can not do profitably you need to find someone who can, that doesn't mean the other employee necessarily needs to be terminated, they just need to be paired with projects that they can successfully generate a profit for you.

from your posts i have come to believe that you have a fair grasp on the realities of being in business but just to be safe..have you reviewed your true operating costs somewhat recently? it is absolutely important to know what you need to charge as an hourly rate to be profitable, if you are not charging a correct hourly rate a scenario such as you are describing will bring to your attention (VERY QUICKLY) that it needs to be reviewed. There are many shops who unfortunately do not know what their hourly rate needs to be...even if you charge based on a product price versus an hourly rate you need to know those numbers so that you can charge prices that are profitable.


What a great post. And Thanks for it. It's not production.. our production is stupid fast. It's the design part of our production that is getting bottle neck'd, and things end up slipping through the cracks in that area. I had one designer it took 4 hrs to get a business card designed.....:frustrated:. I'm pretty much at the point where i'm about to throw ALL stationary stuff that we offer now out the window. Too much work not enough money. Right now we're at the point where we are doing at 10,000 BC's per week. I have one designer designated just to logo/stationary design. When it comes to wraps, signs, banners - Me or another designer hop on that.
Our hrly rate is established, and we work off that all the time
 
what is your policy regarding design? (pricing policy) i don't see a problem IF you are getting paid for every moment of design time, so obviously (nor is it often realistic to expect) you are not getting paid for all design.

it is important to set limits/boundaries. initial design for $X with x amount of revisions and then an hourly rate of $x from there on out...

i have encountered SO MANY designers...and even amazing designers that simply can not design for the sign industry. again it is important to fit the person with the needs of your company..a designer may be amazing at web design, etc but simply can not design effective signs, etc. 4 hrs for a business card...i can not think of a customer who would be very happy paying for that unless it was something truly amazing.

if the design work is being done on spec or included as part of the product cost, i would seriously revisit that policy. however, i doubt that is your scenario.
 

Locals Find!

New Member
What a great post. And Thanks for it. It's not production.. our production is stupid fast. It's the design part of our production that is getting bottle neck'd, and things end up slipping through the cracks in that area. I had one designer it took 4 hrs to get a business card designed.....:frustrated:. I'm pretty much at the point where i'm about to throw ALL stationary stuff that we offer now out the window. Too much work not enough money. Right now we're at the point where we are doing at 10,000 BC's per week. I have one designer designated just to logo/stationary design. When it comes to wraps, signs, banners - Me or another designer hop on that.
Our hrly rate is established, and we work off that all the time

4 hours for a business card design? Can you post it?? That must be one hell of a good looking design.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
what is your policy regarding design? (pricing policy) i don't see a problem IF you are getting paid for every moment of design time, so obviously (nor is it often realistic to expect) you are not getting paid for all design.

it is important to set limits/boundaries. initial design for $X with x amount of revisions and then an hourly rate of $x from there on out...

i have encountered SO MANY designers...and even amazing designers that simply can not design for the sign industry. again it is important to fit the person with the needs of your company..a designer may be amazing at web design, etc but simply can not design effective signs, etc. 4 hrs for a business card...i can not think of a customer who would be very happy paying for that unless it was something truly amazing.

if the design work is being done on spec or included as part of the product cost, i would seriously revisit that policy. however, i doubt that is your scenario.

We charge per hr. for design. It's covered, but I have a HARD time charging my customers so much, because i have one designer who is so slow. They shouldn't have to take that hit. I'm in the process of correcting this, no worries
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Most sign companies treat stationary like loss leaders, most sign companies design and price stationary according to their own idea of what it's worth usually based on low end or bottom feeder competition. It is my opinion after reading quite a few post on business card and stationary prices that most sign shops are charging 25-50% of what that type of work is actually worth.

I agree with JASG in that designers usually have some type of design they are really proficient at. Only a very gifted designer can do web, illustrate, logo, design signs of all types and design for print... Joe Diaz comes to mind has having that kind of gift.

In my experience, I am more profitable to my client/boss if I am designing a 100k apartment job and 5 channel letter jobs worth 20k, than 40 business cards layouts in a week. I doubt anyone here can get 120k for 40 sets of business cards... sign shops will have to decide where to take a hit at the design side. But know that if you are selling stationary, you really are not doing it with the same profitability as traditional sign work.
 

HulkSmash

New Member
Most sign companies treat stationary like loss leaders, most sign companies design and price stationary according to their own idea of what it's worth usually based on low end or bottom feeder competition. It is my opinion after reading quite a few post on business card and stationary prices that most sign shops are charging 25-50% of what that type of work is actually worth.

I agree with JASG in that designers usually have some type of design they are really proficient at. Only a very gifted designer can do web, illustrate, logo, design signs of all types and design for print... Joe Diaz comes to mind has having that kind of gift.

In my experience, I am more profitable to my client/boss if I am designing a 100k apartment job and 5 channel letter jobs worth 20k, than 40 business cards layouts in a week. I doubt anyone here can get 120k for 40 sets of business cards... sign shops will have to decide where to take a hit at the design side. But know that if you are selling stationary, you really are not doing it with the same profitability as traditional sign work.

Oh i know it's a waste a time, but at times can lead to much more. Last summer i threw everything to a local print shop, for all the stationary crap. Last November, we started to offer it to test it out, and was thinking adding another part to our business, but then realized we all hated doing it, so we just outsourced it. Soon as we started "doing" business cards, and stationary, those companies gave us signs, wraps, and stuff of that nature to help market their business even more.

this is the ONLY reason i put up with doing this stuff...
 

royster13

New Member
I send all my business card clients to local sign shops.....Then because they are so busy doing crap like that and have little time to quote on signs, I can get my quotes out quicker than them....
 

Rick

Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Oh i know it's a waste a time, but at times can lead to much more. Last summer i threw everything to a local print shop, for all the stationary crap. Last November, we started to offer it to test it out, and was thinking adding another part to our business, but then realized we all hated doing it, so we just outsourced it. Soon as we started "doing" business cards, and stationary, those companies gave us signs, wraps, and stuff of that nature to help market their business even more.

this is the ONLY reason i put up with doing this stuff...

Then accept the idea of a loss leader. Either understand why it took 4 hours, or create a process that streamlines the layout process for your stationary design. I have layed out business cards in minutes, and some hours. Sometimes it's being uninspired, sometimes it's the fried chicken I ate the night before, sometimes a designer is given poor direction, sometimes designers are just not all that good at business cards. This is where a good boss not just lay down the law, but explain what is required and have a process for them to follow.
 
to be clear Coloradosigns I think you are working in the direction that most sign shops should be working towards (offering what i refer to as 1 stop shopping), if a customer's logo is on it you should have a way to sell it to them...otherwise you are opening the door for them to go to a competitor to have a need filled which could result in you losing the business that you do with them..it is more convenient if they can get all of their corporate collateral at one place ) unless you can truly specialize.

the problem, as has been mentioned, is that you are going to have to accept that there are products that you will not make the margins that you desire...you may even lose money on certain products/services. which then becomes a task of properly marketing the products that you do make a healthy margin on and strongly/promptly/and regularly following up with customers who are buying loss leaders and influencing them to buy other products from you.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
IMHO, the customer is sticking the proverbial cart in front of the horse if the business card is the "platform" where he is first choosing to get a logo designed. It's so BACKWARD that some people will get business cards created (often at very low cost) and then use that as the model for ordering permanent signs. Durp!

Logo design is something that really should occur all on its own, not as an added bonus for a business card layout. Business cards are one of the cheapest ad items that exist. Is the company logo really only worth part of a business card project?

If a business owner doesn't have a logo for his business and doesn't want to pay someone to design the logo on it own, the only "value added" area I see it working at all is when the logo design is incorporated into a sign design & production project. With a decent permanent sign package more time can be spent on design without it demolishing the profit margin.

For office supplies oriented stuff, like business cards, the customer pretty much needs to know exactly what he wants and then you just do it. Iffy details and murky suggestions can lead to costly, profit killing revisions.
 

SightLine

║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
This is what we have been moving towards for the past couple of years. Started by finding a local screen printer to do wholesale for us so we could offer screen printed shirts. Then found a good supplier for business cards. Moved on to start offering promo products like pens, cups, etc. Moved onto embroidery (from the same local screen printer) on polo shirts and hats. Then bought a used Xerox Phaser 7750 (tabloid extra size high end color laser printer) which does multiple duties - makes superb looking tabloid proofs, short run 12x18 80lb card stock posters, short run flyers, in house printing... Recently bought our own embroidery machine (pretty basic single head six needle one) to take that in house. Every single thing we have added - once we start pitching it to our customers, probably a quarter of them end up getting one of those other items and some come in looking for one of those newer items we now offer to begin with and end up getting other things as well.

to be clear Coloradosigns I think you are working in the direction that most sign shops should be working towards (offering what i refer to as 1 stop shopping), if a customer's logo is on it you should have a way to sell it to them...otherwise you are opening the door for them to go to a competitor to have a need filled which could result in you losing the business that you do with them..it is more convenient if they can get all of their corporate collateral at one place ) unless you can truly specialize.

the problem, as has been mentioned, is that you are going to have to accept that there are products that you will not make the margins that you desire...you may even lose money on certain products/services. which then becomes a task of properly marketing the products that you do make a healthy margin on and strongly/promptly/and regularly following up with customers who are buying loss leaders and influencing them to buy other products from you.
 
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