Neither Graphtec Nor Zund See Marks Printed on Some Materials

[wildwest]

Greetings all,

We use Onyx Productionhouse 18.5 with the Graphtec FC8000 and Zund Cut Center settings to create our marks when ripping.

Then the resulting cut file is cut from Onyx Cut Server for Graphtec, or OptiScout v7 and also v8 for Zund depending on the job.

This works perfectly until we need to print white on transparent material or a reflective glitter material we use.

At this point, the cutters become confused and can't find the marks, even though we have the cutter mark darkness set to 4 (as high as it can go) in Onyx.

What fixes this is to print white behind the mark (usually in a square or rectangle that surrounds the mark entirely), then the camera reads it fine.

However, Onyx cannot place white behind a mark, so we always have to set the files up by hand in Illustrator, then put out a separate cut path manually, or bring it into Esko iCut, where we can import our own custom mark that has white behind it.

Both of these workarounds impact the speed of production, though. We'd like to find a way around it.

We took this up with Onyx, and they don't have any plans to introduce a "print white behind marks" feature, so we're looking to see if there's a way to address this problem from the other end - either via OptiScout or the physical Zund/Graphtec cameras themselves.

We have no idea what, if anything, could be done from this end, but we hope there might be some options.

 

[balstestrat]

In Graphtec you can apparently do reverse marks that should work for you.

In Zund I imagine you should be able to adjust the camera to work better on that specific material. At least Summa can read almost anything by adjusting the camera profile. Like increasing the contrast. Usually that material will start to shine and black mark stays black - > camera picks it up straight away.

 

[wildwest]

In Graphtec you can apparently do reverse marks that should work for you.

In Zund I imagine you should be able to adjust the camera to work better on that specific material. At least Summa can read almost anything by adjusting the camera profile. Like increasing the contrast. Usually that material will start to shine and black mark stays black - > camera picks it up straight away.

Thanks for your response.

As far as you know is it possible to set the Graphtec reverse marks in Onyx? I don't see such an option in 18.5 Productionhouse, but I will check with Onyx in case a later version does that.

 

[balstestrat]

That I don't know about.

 

[Joe House]

I doubt that you'll see improvements to an old version of their RIP. Their on V21 now. I would look into Cut Master 4 and see if there is a workflow there to meet your needs. Cutting master allows for reverse color reg marks. Then you can print from any RIP and cut out of cutting master. I've not used this with the 8600, but have with the FC9000. I don't know if this will help or not.
It's a different workflow, but I don't think it would be much more complicated once you get used to it.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

It makes one wonder what could be so hard about adding such a feature to Onyx. I'd press them on this, they seem to be more flexible than most software companies.
When we originally got postershop 18, before upgrading, it had a webserver built in pointed at the RIP. I could upload art, apply quick sets, and select media all from a web browser. It was great for prepping files, then to go out at the end of the day and hit print. When they removed it in maybe 18.2, I don't recall, they said nobody used it. Then they sent over a modified install that had it in it still, though they wouldn't support it. It was broken somehow, and I just set up a remote desktop in place of it, but I was very surprised they'd do anything of the sort for a "little guy" like myself.

Looks to still be there in 21:

 

[Vassago]

I'd keep it simple.. Stick some thin vinyl behind to increase the contrast

 

[Superior_Adam]

Greetings all,

We use Onyx Productionhouse 18.5 with the Graphtec FC8000 and Zund Cut Center settings to create our marks when ripping.

Then the resulting cut file is cut from Onyx Cut Server for Graphtec, or OptiScout v7 and also v8 for Zund depending on the job.

This works perfectly until we need to print white on transparent material or a reflective glitter material we use.

At this point, the cutters become confused and can't find the marks, even though we have the cutter mark darkness set to 4 (as high as it can go) in Onyx.

What fixes this is to print white behind the mark (usually in a square or rectangle that surrounds the mark entirely), then the camera reads it fine.

However, Onyx cannot place white behind a mark, so we always have to set the files up by hand in Illustrator, then put out a separate cut path manually, or bring it into Esko iCut, where we can import our own custom mark that has white behind it.

Both of these workarounds impact the speed of production, though. We'd like to find a way around it.

We took this up with Onyx, and they don't have any plans to introduce a "print white behind marks" feature, so we're looking to see if there's a way to address this problem from the other end - either via OptiScout or the physical Zund/Graphtec cameras themselves.

We have no idea what, if anything, could be done from this end, but we hope there might be some options.

With the Zund cutter you can control the camera as far as brightness and contrast. We do it all the time when cutting/routing clear material

 

[BillGram]

A few years ago when I was selling MCT cutters I had a customer who wanted to laser kiss-cut a clear film with a clear release liner.
The problem was the white LED light was reflecting off the aluminum conveyor belt and confusing the camera causing it to misread dots no matter how the camera was adjusted.
The solution was to use a red LED light and the problem was solved and the camera had no issues resolving the black dots printed on the film without any white backing.
I had another customer who needed to knife cut clear film and they used a white cutting mat or conveyor that worked well.
Good luck,
Bill Grambsch, Sales Agent

 

[Flatbed Tools]

Greetings all,

We use Onyx Productionhouse 18.5 with the Graphtec FC8000 and Zund Cut Center settings to create our marks when ripping.

Then the resulting cut file is cut from Onyx Cut Server for Graphtec, or OptiScout v7 and also v8 for Zund depending on the job.

This works perfectly until we need to print white on transparent material or a reflective glitter material we use.

At this point, the cutters become confused and can't find the marks, even though we have the cutter mark darkness set to 4 (as high as it can go) in Onyx.

What fixes this is to print white behind the mark (usually in a square or rectangle that surrounds the mark entirely), then the camera reads it fine.

However, Onyx cannot place white behind a mark, so we always have to set the files up by hand in Illustrator, then put out a separate cut path manually, or bring it into Esko iCut, where we can import our own custom mark that has white behind it.

Both of these workarounds impact the speed of production, though. We'd like to find a way around it.

We took this up with Onyx, and they don't have any plans to introduce a "print white behind marks" feature, so we're looking to see if there's a way to address this problem from the other end - either via OptiScout or the physical Zund/Graphtec cameras themselves.

We have no idea what, if anything, could be done from this end, but we hope there might be some options.

In ZCC, you can define camera settings based upon material database settings and then save them with a hotfolder tied into Onyx so those settings will automatically be applied to the job. You can change these camera settings in the camera options area and save it as a specific type. It might be best to do a teamviewer session with you to show how this is done. Also, the ZCC software can even take pictures of the mark you print and learn what to look for as a default "dot".

PM me if you would like for me to Login!

Justin

 

[BillGram]

I wonder if you could get a red filter lens for the camera to improve reading, I realize it's not the same as flooding with red light, but perhaps it would increase the contrast enough.

That may work. Certainly a low cost way to test and see if your camera might work like the MCT one did.
The final config was a red LED ring light that has similar light output as the white LED. Probably need to make some contrast adjustments in the ZCC settings.
Just for S#!Ts & giggles I will check with the Blackman & White cutter engineers in the UK to see if they have experienced anything like this in the last 20 years.
Best Bill