Need Help Oce' 360 loss of vacuum to 1 head

[2M]

Background: The machine has been sitting for a few weeks un attended. I suspect the vacuum problem may have been the initial problem, but I'm not sure. The waste station filled with ink, then the white ink line dissolved and burst and the line. The line has been spliced and now the head won't hold ink.

I do not see any obvious leaks, and I am unfamiliar with the spec function of the ink delivery system on this machine. Also too I don't entirely understand the function of the Degas Module, and I question if these clog or get stuck in some way that may cut off the vacuum.

Secondary, the vacuum at the table is weak and even though the fans (or) pumps run there is 0 on the gauges.

Any insight would be much appreciated. If anyone can share a service manual and parts schematic that would be huge. We called Oce' and they declined service to us because we did not buy it from them. Great way to provide any incentive to ever purchase anything Canon.
Thank You

 

[Technician]

Sorry to hear Oce/ canon don’t want to help you. Where did the ink line break? Was it between sub ink tank and print head? If so, have you change the line with a new and proper one?
Or have you made some homemade repair?
Is it only white head dripping ink?
Do you get error codes ink vacuum problem or something?
Check how often your ink vacuum pump is running . Measure the time from it’s stopping and till it starts again. Do same thing again but now you turn off the valve on the carriage of the printer head leaking ink. It should be a big difference in the cycle of the pump motor. If not, turn of all the valves on the carriage and see if ink vacuum is getting stable and vacuum motor cycle is getting very long.
If I remember right the vacuum motor for the ink should normally run less one time a hour when ink temperature is stable and everything is ok.
About the degassing system, it’s a separate vacuum systems for that and have nothing to do with ink vacuum system. How ever the degasser can cracking of old age and leaking some ink and the membrane can start leaking ink to the degass vacuum system. You see if that’s happened on the security filter sitting on the line from the degasser. Open your carriage cover and look..
There is a bulletin of no need of the degasser of some Arizona machines I don’t remember if the 360 was one of them but I can check tomorrow and let you know. If so, you can get a bypass kit and disconnect all degasser and take them out of machine..
we start with this and we can do the fault search of your table vacuum other day
Let me know what you discover and take some pictures.
Good luck

 

[Technician]

I find the bulletin of the degasser and it was only for 400, 550 and 600 series.
Your machine must have the degasser system working.

 

[AlsEU]

First of all - does the ink drips from one W head or both? If from both, the problem is located somewhere above heads, but under the vacuum valve from the W channel. If from one head only, search for a reason under the ink reservoir, it must be somewhere there.

Degas module removes the air microbubbles from the ink with a vacuum. Look carefully, there may be a minor leak somewhere on the module or at one of the connections.

But first - replace the air filter between the valve and the reservoir. On the W channel it's almost impossible to see if it's clogged with ink or not. When it is, you'll have permanent ink dripping from the head. If the ink remains dripping with the new filter, check all vacuum connections between reservoir and the head. Search for any ink leak traces inside the carriage, also near the U tubing under the reservoir.

Regarding the table vacuum - close all the valves and check the tape underneath the upper table cover, it may be damaged or loosen.

 

[2M]

Hello all, and thank you for the suggestions!

The ink line burst on side where the carriage motor is, within that lower housing. It completely dissolved. I spiced it and i'm prepared to swap out the full line set.

The issue with the head not getting vacuum was the both of the white filters (in carriage) being clogged. The larger had a cured membrane of ink fully cutting off vacuum, and the smaller had a drop of what looked like amber in the connection tube. Once replaced the heads holding ink just fine.

Now, from sitting were having jet out issues from it not passing enough ink over time so were trying to run prints and purging, but were getting a Gantry Motion Error. After cycling it a few times we noticed two things; 1) the fault occurred in the same area of carriage travel regardless of where the gantry is (print location on table). 2) I noticed the gantry is cocking upon stopping. It seems the service end is over traveling by about 3/16" (but I can't be sure if its in one direction only or only limited to that side).

Rails are greased, and both lights stay solid green. I cannot find the encoder strips if it has them, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you
M

 

[Technician]

do you have a XT model or a GT?
Encoder is the golden stipe, you can clean them with ipa alcohol . Your motion error can be some different things. Check your coals on the gantry engine, if they are worn you get errors. Also check if gantry moves when you take out maintenance drawer. If you see movement when talking in and out your gantry is not straight and giving motor to much resistance and give you errors

 

[2M]

do you have a XT model or a GT?
Encoder is the golden stipe, you can clean them with ipa alcohol . Your motion error can be some different things. Check your coals on the gantry engine, if they are worn you get errors. Also check if gantry moves when you take out maintenance drawer. If you see movement when talking in and out your gantry is not straight and giving motor to much resistance and give you errors

The machine is an XT.
Please pardon my ignorance, I am unfamiliar with this machine;

1. I don't know what the coals on the gantry engine refers to?
2. I do not see movement when sliding out maintenance drawer.
3. Gold encoder strips; I did clean those as I suspected they might be the encoders. They appear to be flawless. I did find the ground wires not fastened from the encoder pickups. I attached to the frame and have no difference.

All advice is very much appreciated!
M

 

[Technician]

If you look at the gantry motors you will see 3 black and 1 red plastic screw. Behind them you have the brushes
(Arizona Kit Brushes Motor DC (4 pcs) - 3W3010115615)
(Arizona 250 GT Motor DC Servo 34 Frame - 3W3010112131)

Take them out and check if they are worn (to short)
Don’t forget to switch off power before you check

 

[2M]

If you look at the gantry motors you will see 3 black and 1 red plastic screw. Behind them you have the brushes
(Arizona Kit Brushes Motor DC (4 pcs) - 3W3010115615)
(Arizona 250 GT Motor DC Servo 34 Frame - 3W3010112131)

Take them out and check if they are worn (to short)
Don’t forget to switch off power before you check

So I checked the beast this morning and here's what I found:

• Brushes have a lot of life left; photo shows the worst one with some scoring but looks healthy otherwise.
• Encoder is clean, but it dose have what appears to be a wear mark down the center of the strip. Do the pick ups make contact, and do they often go bad? (see image)
• When I move gantry by hand, I notice some over-travel on either end depending upon the push or pull direction. In other words it does not move as a single rigid part staying on a fixed angle to the table.It's sort of floating between sideds and wandering around. I have no idea if this is normal or irregular?

M

 

[AlsEU]

So I checked the beast this morning and here's what I found:

• When I move gantry by hand, I notice some over-travel on either end depending upon the push or pull direction. In other words, it does not move as a single rigid part staying on a fixed angle to the table. It's sort of floating between sides and wandering around. I have no idea if this is normal or irregular?

M

That's pretty normal - both ends of the gantry may move separately, that's what the gantry initialization do - moves to the end and makes the gantry straight. In XT machines manual moves of the gantry should be done by two persons (one at each end) or from the middle of the gantry to keep the straightness. Both ends of the gantry have encoders, which monitors the movements. If you have gantry motors errors and brushes are more or less ok, check another thing - search for the encoder head at each side of the gantry (it's hidden under the gantry, between the table and the lower gantry covers. Each one has a LED diode, which should be green across the whole table when the gantry is moving. If the head loses the contact with the encoder stripe, LED turns into yellow or red. Red means that the machine doesn't know, where is the gantry and shows errors.

 

[2M]

Thats good to know. I checked the lights, and they remain green on full travel and back, No amber, no red. The only thing I noticed that raised question is if it's normal that the pickups are mounted so the lights are facing opposing directions is normal?

Ironically I found a brand new set of Renishaw encoder strips in the parts box we have. Looks like someone has already been through this process ahead of me. I don't think I'm swapping them out unless we know they are bad, as it seems they are not.

What are the group of components or parts that could be contributing to this condition beyond the motor brushes and encoders?

Also, since this thing has been parked for as long, I have to wonder if I'm going to have a jet out problem once online. I have no idea what level of maintenance has been conducted ahead of me and I can hardly get a jet profile to of it. So if I do end up with jet outs , ifs there a recovery mode in the programming, or something manual otherwise?


Thanks so much!
M

 

[2M]

I went through several test runs yesterday to try to isolate this issue, and the more I look at it the more confusing its getting. The gantry lights never go off green, even on error code. On error I noticed when the machine began to move the gantry home, that one side began moving before the other, as if it pulled itself out of alignment (cocking) the gantry. So if the encoders are good and the brushes are good, what else could be causing the over run on one side?

This machine was moved about 1 year ago, Could the machine be out of square from the set up and what's the best way to confirm this?

I'm sorry to be so needy, but I am most great full for the help!

M

 

[Technician]

Maybe I remember wrong, but did you have the service key?
I’m curious, Where are you located?

 

[2M]

We're in the North East, USA. I do not have the key.
We would have hired a capable technician but there are none in our area as I am aware of. Are you traveling to the US any time soon?

M

 

[Technician]

That’s was quite faraway for me. Some day I will visit USA but it will probably not be in the near future. I think your notice of the gantry is moving uneven in the beginning not normal. If gantry is not straight when servo motors is off it will be problems when printing. When servo is on it will straighten the gantry up but the servo motors will struggle to keep it straight and you will get error. Did you get the error direct when you started the printer, or can you start and getting it in ready state to print a job and when you start printing you get the error?
If you can get it in ready state. Can you check on both sides of gantry and mark exactly the position on both sides. Then you switch off machine with out touching gantry and check and measure if you have a little movement. I think it should be less then 1mm movement. If more adjustments must be done

We're in the North East, USA. I do not have the key.
We would have hired a capable technician but there are none in our area as I am aware of. Are you traveling to the US any time soon?

M

 

[AlsEU]

I went through several test runs yesterday to try to isolate this issue, and the more I look at it the more confusing its getting. The gantry lights never go off green, even on error code. On error I noticed when the machine began to move the gantry home, that one side began moving before the other, as if it pulled itself out of alignment (cocking) the gantry. So if the encoders are good and the brushes are good, what else could be causing the over run on one side?

This machine was moved about 1 year ago, Could the machine be out of square from the set up and what's the best way to confirm this?

I'm sorry to be so needy, but I am most great full for the help!

M

Could you create the log from the machine and make it available for download here? It's possible that some hints will be hidden there, I could check it. And yes, gantry encoder readers are facing two sides, it's normal.

 

[2M]

I made another request to Canon and they sent out a tech. He found the brushes were bad on the carriage motor. As it turned out one of them was cracked. Replaced the brushes and it was up and running like nothing happened. I know it was stated to check the brushes but I was looking at the gantry motor brushes because thats where it appeared the error was being generated from based on what was moving and when it sent the error.
I really appreciate everyones help on this situation!

M

 

[Dave NZ]

Sorry to hear Oce/ canon don’t want to help you. Where did the ink line break? Was it between sub ink tank and print head? If so, have you change the line with a new and proper one?
Or have you made some homemade repair?
Is it only white head dripping ink?
Do you get error codes ink vacuum problem or something?
Check how often your ink vacuum pump is running . Measure the time from it’s stopping and till it starts again. Do same thing again but now you turn off the valve on the carriage of the printer head leaking ink. It should be a big difference in the cycle of the pump motor. If not, turn of all the valves on the carriage and see if ink vacuum is getting stable and vacuum motor cycle is getting very long.
If I remember right the vacuum motor for the ink should normally run less one time a hour when ink temperature is stable and everything is ok.
About the degassing system, it’s a separate vacuum systems for that and have nothing to do with ink vacuum system. How ever the degasser can cracking of old age and leaking some ink and the membrane can start leaking ink to the degass vacuum system. You see if that’s happened on the security filter sitting on the line from the degasser. Open your carriage cover and look..
There is a bulletin of no need of the degasser of some Arizona machines I don’t remember if the 360 was one of them but I can check tomorrow and let you know. If so, you can get a bypass kit and disconnect all degasser and take them out of machine..
we start with this and we can do the fault search of your table vacuum other day
Let me know what you discover and take some pictures.
Good luck

Where do I find the bulletin about disconnecting your degasser system as mine is leaking.