Need Help Perf Vinyl / Existing Window Tint Causing Dirty Appearance to Customer

[bartm160]

I'm looking for some advice or similar experiences:

We are a signs and graphics company, we do not do window tint. I have a customer where we applied 60/40 perforated window graphics on her store front windows and door. She had tint previously applied on the inside glass prior to our install.

She is happy with the look of the graphics but she called us out about a week after the install, complaining that her windows looked dirty from the inside. I took a look at it and it did not look dirty to me at all, but I suggested to give it a week or so, as there might be some residual moisture trapped under the perf from the install, as we applied it wet, with a tiny bit of dish soap to be able to slide the graphics in place.

Now, 14 months later, she just reached out again and is still claiming to have the same issue. She said she's had the windows professionally cleaned twice and her window cleaners are saying that it's our fault somehow. I suspect it to be a combination of perf and tint causing some sort of a light diffusion issue, giving the appearance of haziness or dirty windows from the inside.

I should also add that the windows and glass door do not get direct sunlight as they are under a covered patio area. There is also bright fluorescent lighting inside the office area that may be a contributing factor.

I know that we thoroughly cleaned the windows twice prior to applying the graphics, so it's not that we applied them to dirty glass as she's claiming. She actually said there is dirt and debris causing them to look dirty, which I know for a fact isn't correct. I explained that if there were dirt and debris trapped under the graphics, it would show a visible bump(s) from the outside and that is just not the case.

I'm trying to reach out to some tint installers to get their input as well.

My question is, have you ever experienced an issue like this applying 60/40 perf or a similar product to exterior windows that already had tint on the inside causing a customer to complain of dirty windows? I've never run into anything like this before.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much

 

[bigben]

What do you mean by ''dirty''? Like debrits or cloud? Did you laminate your window perf? If yes, that could be the problem (creating a haze). If not, check if you see any bump from both sides of the windows. If there not, it could be a reflection of the light between the two films that pump from each other on the thickness of the window. I've done alot of windows with perf and tint and never had a problem.

 

[Stacey K]

Could it have something to do with the wet application? I've never done window perf wet, I didn't think you were supposed to.

 

[bartm160]

Thank you, I really appreciate your input. I should've specified that, we did not laminate the perf. My customers exact words were dirt and debris under the vinyl is causing it to look dirty. I looked at it myself and it honestly looked good to me from the inside. There is definitely no dirt and debris from the inside as she described. From the outside, there are no bumps. I did explain to her that if there were dirt and debris under the graphics, it would show up as bumps on the outside under the vinyl, which there aren't any because the windows were thoroughly cleaned twice prior to installing.

I'm thinking it's what you've said that there could be a reflection of light between the two films.

 

[bartm160]

Could it have something to do with the wet application? I've never done window perf wet, I didn't think you were supposed to.

Thank you Stacey, we've always done wet perf installs. I can't imagine aligning a large window perfectly without it. I believe it's pretty standard.

 

[Boudica]

Could it have something to do with the wet application? I've never done window perf wet, I didn't think you were supposed to.

depends on the type of adhesive. If it's gray, then it's made up of clay and you DON'T want to wet apply. If it's clear then it's ok. We never wet apply perf, but we also generally laminate with optically clear.

 

[Solventinkjet]

Most, if not all, vinyl manufacturers don't recommend wet install for perf.

 

[dannyd1962]

And now there's this: https://www.glassapeel.net/the-product/

 

[Boudica]

And now there's this: https://www.glassapeel.net/the-product/

I love glass apeel, and if you do wet apply the clear, it's truly optically clear.

 

[unclebun]

I think you're going to need to go to the store with the owner and have her point to the dirt she sees. The fact is, although you aren't supposed to wet install perforated vinyl, in terms of seeing dirt through the window, you aren't going to have any. When looking out through a perforated vinyl graphic you are looking through holes. Unless there is dirt trapped in the holes, there's no dirt to be seeing trapped behind the vinyl. The back of the vinyl is dark, so when you look out you can't actually see it because there's no light.

If she is seeing dirt trapped against the glass, it is most likely on the inside, trapped by the tint. Or she is hallucinating. Or maybe she thinks the black grid around the dots of the holes is dirt.

If she cannot point out the specks of dirt, then gently make clear to her that it cannot be a problem.

A more plausible scenario than dirt under either the tint or the perforated graphic is that either the light transmission is so decreased from having both tint and perf on the same glass that she's interpreting the decreased visibility as dirt, or that there is a moire effect coming from the dot pattern and any polarizing effect in the tint or glass itself.

 

[TEN]

Have you been there to personally see this issue? Some dirt and debris may accumulate in the open holes over time but that is not an install issue. If there is any dirt trapped under the perf it would not really be visible anyway. From a visibility standpoint with perf all you are seeing is what is visible through the holes - that's how perf works. Mount a sample of the same perf on a small piece of clear acrylic and show the client how perf works.

 

[bartm160]

depends on the type of adhesive. If it's gray, then it's made up of clay and you DON'T want to wet apply. If it's clear then it's ok. We never wet apply perf, but we also generally laminate with optically clear.

Have you been there to personally see this issue? Some dirt and debris may accumulate in the open holes over time but that is not an install issue. If there is any dirt trapped under the perf it would not really be visible anyway. From a visibility standpoint with perf all you are seeing is what is visible through the holes - that's how perf works. Mount a sample of the same perf on a small piece of clear acrylic and show the client how perf works.

Yes, I did go out and take a look at it a few days after the install. She was saying that the windows looked dirty from the inside. The windows were thoroughly cleaned before applying the graphics so there is definitely no dirt and debris behind the vinyl (her words). In all honesty the windows did not look dirty to me from the inside looking out but I also didn't want to make light of her concern as she knows her windows better than I do. She also said that she's had the windows professionally cleaned twice and the issue is still there.

After seeing everyone's comments here I went back and reviewed the material that was used for this job and reviewed the technical specs and I see now that it does have a grey liner and it says to install dry. I'm going to start with the door and remove the existing perf, clean again thoroughly and apply dry and have her verify if it looks clean from the inside. If that solves the problem, I'll do the other two windows again too. If it does not solve the problem, then the only other possibility is that the inside tint has probably degraded over time and the combination of adding perf on the outside is causing it to diffuse the light in a way that it appears dirty or hazy.

I appreciate everyone's input very much.

Thank you

 

[Stacey K]

Well, that sucks. At least you know now and sounds like it's the only issue you've had so that's the good part! Before you do the door, have her approve that it's clean. I wonder if the soap water made smears as you moved it around to get it in place.

I usually do the hinge method with dry applying windows, it usually lays pretty well. I only had one issue where I had to reprint and that's because it was applied when it was like 40 outside and it ripped. Another thing you shouldn't do, apply when cold out LOL

 

[TEN]

Yes, I did go out and take a look at it a few days after the install. She was saying that the windows looked dirty from the inside. The windows were thoroughly cleaned before applying the graphics so there is definitely no dirt and debris behind the vinyl (her words). In all honesty the windows did not look dirty to me from the inside looking out but I also didn't want to make light of her concern as she knows her windows better than I do. She also said that she's had the windows professionally cleaned twice and the issue is still there.

After seeing everyone's comments here I went back and reviewed the material that was used for this job and reviewed the technical specs and I see now that it does have a grey liner and it says to install dry. I'm going to start with the door and remove the existing perf, clean again thoroughly and apply dry and have her verify if it looks clean from the inside. If that solves the problem, I'll do the other two windows again too. If it does not solve the problem, then the only other possibility is that the inside tint has probably degraded over time and the combination of adding perf on the outside is causing it to diffuse the light in a way that it appears dirty or hazy.

I appreciate everyone's input very much.

Thank you

The liner is the backer material, many adhesive vinyl's have grey adhesive to help with opacity - but most perforated vinyl is black on the back, adhesive side which helps with visibility to see out from the interior side. Hope it works out in your favor.