Printing Dark Colors On 3m Ij180-cv3

[Bill72]

I've read a couple threads with similar issues but I want to put the specifics of my experience out there and hopefully get some better insight onto what is happening and/or how to avoid it in the future. I'd like to hear from any one with advice or possible causes as well as anyone else who has experienced this and the specifics of there situation.

First the issue, then the specifics... so the issue is when I print dark colors, primarily red, onto 3M IJ180-CV3 the vinyl immediately sticks to the surface I'm applying it on as soon as the backing paper is removed with no pressure, heat or primer applied. It doesn't have the repositionability that it usually does, the vinyl has no "back bone", its soft and stretchy extremely hard to work. edges curl in on itself, air bubbles are extremely difficult to work out...just very difficult to work with. Keep in mind i'm not blaming the 3M IJ180 or even thinking that anythings wrong with it, its just the specific material I'm using.

Now the specifics... So as stated the Vinyl is 3M IJ180 CV3, My printer is a Roland Versacamm 540 and I use only the Roland ECO-Solvent ink (no generics), I laminate the prints with 3M 8518 Glossy overlam on a seal base 54 laminator. I work for a large bus repair company that does every thing from mechanical to interior refurbs, paint and body and my job as the graphics guy with our in house print shop. I've only been doing this for about 2 and a half years so i'm pretty much a newbie. I'm a one man show at our shop so my go to when I have issues is this forum. The only vinyl we print on is 3M I don't have experience with any other. Right now I have 4 transit buses that have a 24" wide print that wraps the entire bus (see attached pictures). We do a lot of these buses with the same print and colors. I have the issue before but only when ive been rushed to print and haven't had time to let the ink dry before laminating. This time is different I had it all printed a week and a half before buses arrived and let them dry a full week before laminating and then sat laminated 3 or 4 days before I started to install. I've done one bus already and the vinyl still had the issue. I know that with the darker colors the vinyl gets heavily saturated with ink and takes longer to dry but a week!? and still hasn't bounced back? Something else has to be going on here. I'm printing with the same profile and color as always, printer heat is at 40 C and dryer at 45 C. Humidity isn't an issue, winter in Minnesota, shop is well heated and surface of buses is the same, there in the building several days before I start. I've already printed all four buses and am proficient enough at installing to work through this round but would make life a lot easier to know how to avoid this struggle in the future.

Thank you for any and all responses

 

[Signs Express]

I've read a couple threads with similar issues but I want to put the specifics of my experience out there and hopefully get some better insight onto what is happening and/or how to avoid it in the future. I'd like to hear from any one with advice or possible causes as well as anyone else who has experienced this and the specifics of there situation.

First the issue, then the specifics... so the issue is when I print dark colors, primarily red, onto 3M IJ180-CV3 the vinyl immediately sticks to the surface I'm applying it on as soon as the backing paper is removed with no pressure, heat or primer applied. It doesn't have the repositionability that it usually does, the vinyl has no "back bone", its soft and stretchy extremely hard to work. edges curl in on itself, air bubbles are extremely difficult to work out...just very difficult to work with. Keep in mind i'm not blaming the 3M IJ180 or even thinking that anythings wrong with it, its just the specific material I'm using.

Now the specifics... So as stated the Vinyl is 3M IJ180 CV3, My printer is a Roland Versacamm 540 and I use only the Roland ECO-Solvent ink (no generics), I laminate the prints with 3M 8518 Glossy overlam on a seal base 54 laminator. I work for a large bus repair company that does every thing from mechanical to interior refurbs, paint and body and my job as the graphics guy with our in house print shop. I've only been doing this for about 2 and a half years so i'm pretty much a newbie. I'm a one man show at our shop so my go to when I have issues is this forum. The only vinyl we print on is 3M I don't have experience with any other. Right now I have 4 transit buses that have a 24" wide print that wraps the entire bus (see attached pictures). We do a lot of these buses with the same print and colors. I have the issue before but only when ive been rushed to print and haven't had time to let the ink dry before laminating. This time is different I had it all printed a week and a half before buses arrived and let them dry a full week before laminating and then sat laminated 3 or 4 days before I started to install. I've done one bus already and the vinyl still had the issue. I know that with the darker colors the vinyl gets heavily saturated with ink and takes longer to dry but a week!? and still hasn't bounced back? Something else has to be going on here. I'm printing with the same profile and color as always, printer heat is at 40 C and dryer at 45 C. Humidity isn't an issue, winter in Minnesota, shop is well heated and surface of buses is the same, there in the building several days before I start. I've already printed all four buses and am proficient enough at installing to work through this round but would make life a lot easier to know how to avoid this struggle in the future.

Thank you for any and all responses

Sounds like you have an over-saturation issue. Regardless if you have let the ink properly outgas and dry prior to lamination, there is simply too much solvent based ink in the vinyl. Keep in mind solvents bite into the surface of the vinyl as opposed to latex or UV curable inks which sit on top. We used to run a Roland Eco-Solvent printer and would experience the very same issue with heavy blacks, rich reds, etc... It causes the film to lose structure. The solvents also cause the adhesive to become much more aggressive. You're going to have to give up some saturation for the sake of not overloading the film. It will handle much better...

 

[jfiscus]

How was the vinyl sitting after it was printed before it was laminated? Was it rolled up tightly on the take-up core?
Solvents can't off-gas if they can't escape, and then they start going into the adhesive. Solvents are also heavier than air so they want to go downwards.
Stand your rolls on end, loosely rolled. If you have the ability, build yourself a downdraft off-gassing booth to speed up the process.
When we only had Mimaki Solvent printers here ours was a life-saver, now we hardly ever use it.

More info in this old thread: out gassing solvent prints

 

[Mason Grubb]

I've read a couple threads with similar issues but I want to put the specifics of my experience out there and hopefully get some better insight onto what is happening and/or how to avoid it in the future. I'd like to hear from any one with advice or possible causes as well as anyone else who has experienced this and the specifics of there situation.

First the issue, then the specifics... so the issue is when I print dark colors, primarily red, onto 3M IJ180-CV3 the vinyl immediately sticks to the surface I'm applying it on as soon as the backing paper is removed with no pressure, heat or primer applied. It doesn't have the repositionability that it usually does, the vinyl has no "back bone", its soft and stretchy extremely hard to work. edges curl in on itself, air bubbles are extremely difficult to work out...just very difficult to work with. Keep in mind i'm not blaming the 3M IJ180 or even thinking that anythings wrong with it, its just the specific material I'm using.

Now the specifics... So as stated the Vinyl is 3M IJ180 CV3, My printer is a Roland Versacamm 540 and I use only the Roland ECO-Solvent ink (no generics), I laminate the prints with 3M 8518 Glossy overlam on a seal base 54 laminator. I work for a large bus repair company that does every thing from mechanical to interior refurbs, paint and body and my job as the graphics guy with our in house print shop. I've only been doing this for about 2 and a half years so i'm pretty much a newbie. I'm a one man show at our shop so my go to when I have issues is this forum. The only vinyl we print on is 3M I don't have experience with any other. Right now I have 4 transit buses that have a 24" wide print that wraps the entire bus (see attached pictures). We do a lot of these buses with the same print and colors. I have the issue before but only when ive been rushed to print and haven't had time to let the ink dry before laminating. This time is different I had it all printed a week and a half before buses arrived and let them dry a full week before laminating and then sat laminated 3 or 4 days before I started to install. I've done one bus already and the vinyl still had the issue. I know that with the darker colors the vinyl gets heavily saturated with ink and takes longer to dry but a week!? and still hasn't bounced back? Something else has to be going on here. I'm printing with the same profile and color as always, printer heat is at 40 C and dryer at 45 C. Humidity isn't an issue, winter in Minnesota, shop is well heated and surface of buses is the same, there in the building several days before I start. I've already printed all four buses and am proficient enough at installing to work through this round but would make life a lot easier to know how to avoid this struggle in the future.

Thank you for any and all responses

We have started having the same issues with this film. Something changed a few years back and now this film is extremely hard to apply. Nothing changed on our end (profiles, printers, laminators, inks,environment etc) We have been in contact with 3M's local rep as well as corporate. We have been completely blown off. We sent in print samples with all our settings, profiles, info, for their testing. We have received no help. We let our prints gas off correctly even using downward air flow assist. We also are looking for any input since we have ran out of possible reasons for the problems. It does sound like ink saturation is causing the breakdown of the adhesion, but it didn't used to be a problem in the past. We have been in this business since the 80's and have used this film since it was developed and it definitely a big problem now compared to the past. Installs, especially large wraps etc are extremely difficult. Sorry we don't have any help or input for you. We have multiple shops in our area experiencing the same problems, still 3M refused to acknowledge the problem. We have also tried their new 180MC wrap film and it's not much better, if fact we had to send 2 rolls back because it prints grainy. After not receiving any help from 3M we talked to our local suppliers (Sun Supply and Denco) and they mentioned that many shops are switching to Avery's 1105 SC EZ RS wrap film due to this issue. It has made our life so much easier. We have easy peal liner, low initial tack, air bubbles flow out easy, vinyl snaps back up and slides just like advertised. You might check it out!