R10 laminate separate from hi-tack vinyl

[Kinkajou]

Hi!
First time posting something here but not the first time visiting this forum, you guys already helped me out quite a few times, indirectly!

So... I have a big problem with laminate separating from hi-tack vinyl.

Vinyl: Avery MPI 2006 High-Tack (polymeric)
Laminate: Avery DOL 6000FR (R10 texturized lam, polymeric)
Plotter: Mimaki CJV 150-160 (SS21 inks)
Laminator: FLEXA Easy Lite 160

Basically, a client of my client sent him a photo to show him that the lamination shrinked over the vinyl, and peeled off. I'm attaching two pics so you can see... They are custom prints for oversized decks for electric scooters.
Btw, this is a single case over hundreds of prints.

How I print, laminate and cut:

I print on MPI 2006 with proper color profile and -10% ink, cut the sheet and let it gas out for 24+ hours, perfectly flat on a table. Then I laminate it with NO HEAT (my laminator has 30°, 40° and 50° heat options), and minimum pressure. I had serious problems months ago when I was laminating with 30°~40° heat and mid to strong pressure; after cutting, cuts such as screw holes or corners were mismatching!

So... after laminating I cut with heaters turned OFF.

What am I doing wrong? By the way, I've been advised to use cold lamination from my supplier, but the laminator manufacturer said I CAN use some heating while laminating...
This is driving me crazy. I'm risking my client going back to his old supplier, who prints directly on anti-slip film with UV inks which I think are much stronger than SS21 eco solvent inks... in facts, his inks were also sort of "scratch resistant". This is why I had to stop printing directly on anti-slip vinyl and start laminate my prints...

Hope it's clear enough, sorry for my english!
Waiting for a kind reply, thank you!

 

[Proofread People]

It says Avery DOL 6000FR is a floor graphic lamination for indoor use and maximum 9 months only. I have never used this material but making sure the vinyl and laminates are compatible for expansion and contraction are important. In my experience, its better to maker sure materials play nice with printer and laminator settings. Don't experiment on a large job without testing, testing, testing - otherwise it gets expensive. Good luck!

 

[balstestrat]

Looks to me like hes been kicking that/it's hit something or else. He's putting the blame on you now.

But yeah, you should definitely get something that is meant for outdoors...

 

[AGCharlotte]

What Proofread said... the DOL 6000FR is an indoor only temporary floor laminate. I'm not as familiar w/ Avery but the 3060/3070/3080 seem closer to correct for your application.

 

[Kinkajou]

It says Avery DOL 6000FR is a floor graphic lamination for indoor use and maximum 9 months only. I have never used this material but making sure the vinyl and laminates are compatible for expansion and contraction are important. In my experience, its better to maker sure materials play nice with printer and laminator settings. Don't experiment on a large job without testing, testing, testing - otherwise it gets expensive. Good luck!

What Proofread said... the DOL 6000FR is an indoor only temporary floor laminate. I'm not as familiar w/ Avery but the 3060/3070/3080 seem closer to correct for your application.

I was advised by my vinyl supplier to buy DOL 6000FR (he do not have Avery 3060/3070/3080). He praised the quality of this lamination and relied on the fact that if it resists even being trampled and washed hundreds of times inside shopping malls or whatsoever, it definitely would not give problems outside, only stepped on for a few minutes by a single person mostly standing.
Btw, the damage visible in the photo has appeared just now on a board purchased 2 months ago.

 

[Proofread People]

I was advised by my vinyl supplier to buy DOL 6000FR (he do not have Avery 3060/3070/3080). He praised the quality of this lamination and relied on the fact that if it resists even being trampled and washed hundreds of times inside shopping malls or whatsoever, it definitely would not give problems outside, only stepped on for a few minutes by a single person mostly standing.
Btw, the damage visible in the photo has appeared just now on a board purchased 2 months ago.

I was advised by my vinyl supplier to buy DOL 6000FR (he do not have Avery 3060/3070/3080). He praised the quality of this lamination and relied on the fact that if it resists even being trampled and washed hundreds of times inside shopping malls or whatsoever, it definitely would not give problems outside, only stepped on for a few minutes by a single person mostly standing.
Btw, the damage visible in the photo has appeared just now on a board purchased 2 months ago.

https://graphics.averydennison.eu/content/dam/averydennison/graphics/eu/en/technical-bulletins/Digital-Printing/tb-5-4-processing-tips-for-avery-dennison-dol-films-en.pdf

Check out the technical bulletin from Avery, not sure if you're having a temperature, tension issue or it's just the wrong material for your customer's need. Did you show your vinyl supplier the issue of delaminating?

 

[Kinkajou]

https://graphics.averydennison.eu/content/dam/averydennison/graphics/eu/en/technical-bulletins/Digital-Printing/tb-5-4-processing-tips-for-avery-dennison-dol-films-en.pdf

Check out the technical bulletin from Avery, not sure if you're having a temperature, tension issue or it's just the wrong material for your customer's need. Did you show your vinyl supplier the issue of delaminating?

Temp 20~35; I laminate with heaters OFF because of the stretching and cut mismatching problem
Pressure 50 ‐ 70; my laminator doesn't have a digital indicator of pressure, just a crank...
Speed 0 ‐ 2,5; that's ok.

Yes, I show him the issue and he said that, for him, it's a damage caused by customer and not a lamination problem because Avery DOL 6000 is the best lam bla bla bla and only I am having such problems... Still, laminate shrinked down up to 1mm exposing the print, like it was never properly attached to it.

Maybe this lam is not strong enough to stay on top of a high-tack vinyl? I definately am not going to buy a 30€/mq cast lamination

 

[Proofread People]

Temp 20~35; I laminate with heaters OFF because of the stretching and cut mismatching problem
Pressure 50 ‐ 70; my laminator doesn't have a digital indicator of pressure, just a crank...
Speed 0 ‐ 2,5; that's ok.

Yes, I show him the issue and he said that, for him, it's a damage caused by customer and not a lamination problem because Avery DOL 6000 is the best lam bla bla bla and only I am having such problems... Still, laminate shrinked down up to 1mm exposing the print, like it was never properly attached to it.

Maybe this lam is not strong enough to stay on top of a high-tack vinyl? I definately am not going to buy a 30€/mq cast lamination

Who installed the graphic, the customer? We won't warranty any installation if we didn't perform it. Could be a combination of shrinkage from outdoor exposure to heating and contracting and improper installation, don't know.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Well THIS is a first. The HP Latex ink stuck to the overlaminate when separated. (Reflective vinyl) So I imagine the plasticizers or whatever in the reflective migrated heavily to the surface during the curing process (heat) so much so that they created an almost solid layer at the top, with the ink. This is CRAZY!

 

[Proofread People]

Well THIS is a first. The HP Latex ink stuck to the overlaminate when separated. (Reflective vinyl) So I imagine the plasticizers or whatever in the reflective migrated heavily to the surface during the curing process (heat) so much so that they created an almost solid layer at the top, with the ink. This is CRAZY!

Ohhh been there, been there. Make sure it's a digitally receptive reflective vinyl. We switched to 3M 51000R. Or you can leave a white inset so that lam is sticking to the naked vinyl and not ink.

 

[Kinkajou]

Who installed the graphic, the customer? We won't warranty any installation if we didn't perform it. Could be a combination of shrinkage from outdoor exposure to heating and contracting and improper installation, don't know.

I print, laminate and cut graphics for my client, who then install them (few days later) whith soap and water on thick plexiglass and finally ships them to his clients. I also have problems with mismatching screw holes... this drives me crazy.

 

[Proofread People]

I print, laminate and cut graphics for my client, who then install them (few days later) whith soap and water on thick plexiglass and finally ships them to his clients. I also have problems with mismatching screw holes... this drives me crazy.

Does your client have the plexiglass holes predrilled? You have to take in to account your material shrinking as it gets cured (from the printer) or heated thru the laminator. And vinyl shrinks at a different rates (cast vs. calendared). Do you need to contour cut the screw holes? At times, I will print a very small inconspicuous dot measured "on center" to indicate where the screw hole should be.

 

[Kinkajou]

Does your client have the plexiglass holes predrilled? You have to take in to account your material shrinking as it gets cured (from the printer) or heated thru the laminator. And vinyl shrinks at a different rates (cast vs. calendared). Do you need to contour cut the screw holes? At times, I will print a very small inconspicuous dot measured "on center" to indicate where the screw hole should be.

Sorry for this big and incomprehensible wall text... hope you'll understant the story.
He makes screw holes, then cuts the shape of the board. Then MANUALLY countersink screw holes and finally applies my print with soap & water.
When I got this job he gave me flat pictures of various boards with holes in position. I vectorized them and made a precise offset of every screw countersink. At the beginning I was directly printing on anti-slip vinyl, but it was not scratch resistant (not like the UV prints of his former supplier di lui). So I bought hi-tack and R10 lamination and started laminating and cut with heaters ON. Vinyl started to get "soft", cuts were misalligned and we spent weeks manually editing vector files based on the previous results not considering that the problem was the heat indeed. Now that I'm laminating and cut with absolutely NO HEAT, I remade vector files from scratch and now every hole I'm cutting is absolutely precise.