S50675 - Pantone Colors not matching. Cyan especially

[FactorDesign]

This is the 2nd job recently where a previously printed job needed repairs after coming back from a show, and when I opened up the previously ripped job that was still in the print que (ie: zero changes to print media, print profile, or media selection) and the colors are coming out totally different.
It is acting as though the cyan is printing at 25-50% density of the requested pantone color (298C in this case), and the print itself is slightly splotchy.

I've changed cyan ink cartridges thinking possibly that one had a defect causing air in the lines, but printing 100% cyan yields a nice rich color, where as the pantone colors are muted. I've also printed the colors converted to CMYK and RGB, which still appear muted, though slightly shifted in color.

So... where should I begin to check to see what the issue might be?

 

[AKwrapguy]

This is the 2nd job recently where a previously printed job needed repairs after coming back from a show, and when I opened up the previously ripped job that was still in the print que (ie: zero changes to print media, print profile, or media selection) and the colors are coming out totally different.
It is acting as though the cyan is printing at 25-50% density of the requested pantone color (298C in this case), and the print itself is slightly splotchy.

I've changed cyan ink cartridges thinking possibly that one had a defect causing air in the lines, but printing 100% cyan yields a nice rich color, where as the pantone colors are muted. I've also printed the colors converted to CMYK and RGB, which still appear muted, though slightly shifted in color.

So... where should I begin to check to see what the issue might be?

What printer model, rip, media etc.. are you using?

 

[Superior_Adam]

changes in the environment(temp/humidity) can change the colors. Might not be the problem but I notice it here mainly with humidity.

 

[FactorDesign]

What printer model, rip, media etc.. are you using?

You know.. that is probably information people would need!
Surecolor S50675 - Onyx Gamaprint Rip (Think it is based on Onyx 11?)
Printing on IJ180C V3. I've tried multiple rolls and have switched inks. Really every color seems fine other than when we try to print a less than 100% cyan.

 

[FactorDesign]

changes in the environment(temp/humidity) can change the colors. Might not be the problem but I notice it here mainly with humidity.

That is actually a good point. Our building is a bit drafty, so with the humid summer weather the environmental conditions are less than ideal, though I would think fairly consistently so. Did you find a solution to your issue? Perhaps a dehumidifier or something would help?

 

[AKwrapguy]

You know.. that is probably information people would need!
Surecolor S50675 - Onyx Gamaprint Rip (Think it is based on Onyx 11?)
Printing on IJ180C V3. I've tried multiple rolls and have switched inks. Really every color seems fine other than when we try to print a less than 100% cyan.

Not super familiar with that set up but, could there be an issue with one of your heads? Could someone else have gone in a tweaked anything?

 

[FactorDesign]

Not super familiar with that set up but, could there be an issue with one of your heads? Could someone else have gone in a tweaked anything?

Nozzle test pattern is near perfect - just a tiny deflection on black head 1, but this color uses no black, and it is never visible in any prints regardless.

Hardware / Software configuration:

Printer: Epson Surecolor S50675 - Dual CMYK setup

Rip: Onyx Gamaprint (Onyx 11)

Media: 3M IJ180c V3


Intended Print Color: Pantone 298C

Previous print results: (See background color) - Slight oversaturation, printed at 95% opacity in order to dial in color.

Current print results: (see sample squares) - Severe under saturation. Prints are blotchy.

I have tested 3 different rolls of 3M IJ180c V3 - All show the same faded print with the pantone color, or any color close to the same CMYK values.

124364L18145 - end of a roll from last week

124364L18146 - current roll, about 10 feet in

132190L18174 - brand new roll received yesterday and opened today for testing


Using the same print 3M profile, I tested with a popup banner media and Oracal 3651. The pop-up banner media comes very close to being an exact match to the Pantone value, while the Oracal 3651 appears over saturated, similar to previous results with the 3M media, which required the print to be done at 95% opacity.

 

[papabud]

all your 3m samples are very consistent.
do you ever need to color calibrate to your machine.
has anything with the machine changed
have you tried reripping the file to see if that helps

 

[eahicks]

Nozzle test pattern is near perfect - just a tiny deflection on black head 1, but this color uses no black, and it is never visible in any prints regardless.

Hardware / Software configuration:

Printer: Epson Surecolor S50675 - Dual CMYK setup

Rip: Onyx Gamaprint (Onyx 11)

Media: 3M IJ180c V3


Intended Print Color: Pantone 298C

Previous print results: (See background color) - Slight oversaturation, printed at 95% opacity in order to dial in color.

Current print results: (see sample squares) - Severe under saturation. Prints are blotchy.

I have tested 3 different rolls of 3M IJ180c V3 - All show the same faded print with the pantone color, or any color close to the same CMYK values.

124364L18145 - end of a roll from last week

124364L18146 - current roll, about 10 feet in

132190L18174 - brand new roll received yesterday and opened today for testing


Using the same print 3M profile, I tested with a popup banner media and Oracal 3651. The pop-up banner media comes very close to being an exact match to the Pantone value, while the Oracal 3651 appears over saturated, similar to previous results with the 3M media, which required the print to be done at 95% opacity.

Good god none of those are 298C. That's a very light blue you should be getting.

 

[ColorCrest]

So... where should I begin to check to see what the issue might be?

May we see a photo of your Pantone swatch book using 298C up against your printed samples?

I think the answer to your initial question will be readily apparent.

 

[FactorDesign]

May we see a photo of your Pantone swatch book using 298C up against your printed samples?

I think the answer to your initial question will be readily apparent.

Here is a photo with the chart. I've auto color corrected this one in photoshop to give a more fair representation of the actual color vs just being a side by side. I put the pantone color between the last 3m sample and the pop-up banner sample, and tried to overlap with the original print. The lights in this part of the shop are really bad, but I can't exactly fit a 8ft wrapped column on to the color viewing station.

all your 3m samples are very consistent.
do you ever need to color calibrate to your machine.
has anything with the machine changed
have you tried reripping the file to see if that helps

They are consistent, but wrong. but If I print a 200c red, it is spot on. I could understand one roll being bad, or all colors being bad due to a bad print profile, but one color, that previously printed fine on the same media, with the same print profile (even tried printing from the archived rip que to make sure no settings had changed!)... I just don't know where to start.

So far as color calibrating the machine... No. Because I have no tools to do so. Also the rip in general feels incredibly limited in what can be tuned compared to what I'm used to with Roland printers. I have found where you can open each file in the rip individually and change color percentages, but I didn't observe any difference when bumping cyan to 120% as a test, so I'm not sure it actually adds beyond 100%.

 

[papabud]

well the simplest way to put it.
you can not match exact colors constantly with out a color calibration system.
the machine and rip need to be calibrated. to the environment at the time you run the job.
with out that you will get what the machine thinks the machine wants to print and the machine will print what it thinks will give you the color you want.
with out knowing how to get there

 

[FactorDesign]

well the simplest way to put it.
you can not match exact colors constantly with out a color calibration system.
the machine and rip need to be calibrated. to the environment at the time you run the job.
with out that you will get what the machine thinks the machine wants to print and the machine will print what it thinks will give you the color you want.
with out knowing how to get there

Is there a tool you suggest? X-Rite sells so many with overlapping feature sets, I'm not 100% sure which is the go-to one for media profiling.

 

[ColorCrest]

Any particular reason you did not make a photo of the Pantone book against the same swatches as shown originally?

By the way, you are not handling color management correctly in Photoshop. I can tell from your monitor profile imbedded in your capture from your iPhone.

 

[FactorDesign]

Any particular reason you did not make a photo of the Pantone book against the same swatches as shown originally?

By the way, you are not handling color management correctly in Photoshop. I can tell from your monitor profile imbedded in your capture from your iPhone.

The 3" x 4" color swatches? I didn't think it would be possible to even see the pantone swatch if I was pulled back far enough to show them all. I simply took a picture where part of the latest 3M swatch, along with the pop-up banner swatch, and the previously wrapped column were all in frame. And yes I'm sure I do a lot of things wrong in terms of color. I'd be happy to fix any and all of these issues if I had any idea what they were.

 

[ColorCrest]

The 3" x 4" color swatches?

Yup. Just upload the new capture without your attempt at color correction.

After that, drill into your Onyx folder(s) where you should find some reference image files that you can print and use to visually evaluate the current state of your machine. Look for ONYX_Photo_Quality_Test_Lab.tif and ONYX Quality Evaluation.pdf. Over time, you should become very familiar with these files and print them regularly.

 

[Andy D]

Hold on... Let's back up to the beginning and make sure we're understanding you..
1. You printed something a week or so ago
2. you opened the same exact rip file that you originally printed from (not re-exporting from design & re-ripping)
3. you printed from that rip file, not changing anything.
4. your colors are that far off even though you are printing to the same media and your nozzle test looks good.

Is all that correct? If so, this has nothing to do with your profile.
A bad profile is still a profile, meaning if it prints PMS 298 the wrong color today it will print the same wrong color tomorrow if
your printer has the same # of nozzles firing and the media is the same... environment will change colors some, but not that much
and you would see banding where the nozzles are coming in and out, not a even blue print.

Some thing had to have changed...

 

[FactorDesign]

Hold on... Let's back up to the beginning and make sure we're understanding you..
1. You printed something a week or so ago
2. you opened the same exact rip file that you originally printed from (not re-exporting from design & re-ripping)
3. you printed from that rip file, not changing anything.
4. your colors are that far off even though you are printing to the same media and your nozzle test looks good.

Is all that correct? If so, this has nothing to do with your profile.
A bad profile is still a profile, meaning if it prints PMS 298 the wrong color today it will print the same wrong color tomorrow if
your printer has the same # of nozzles firing and the media is the same... environment will change colors some, but not that much
and you would see banding where the nozzles are coming in and out, not a even blue print.

Some thing had to have changed...

Correct Andy.

1. This was actually printed just over 1 month ago, but I left the files in the print que because we knew there was a good chance that panels would need to be re-wrapped after coming back from the trade show. The setup/takedown crews are pretty hard on the booths.
2. The files were still in the rip archive, so I moved them back up to the print que, and did not re-rip them (at first) to make sure no settings had changed.
3. Files were printed on the exact same settings, with the same media type, 3M IJ180c V3.
4. Yes, the colors are pretty far off. But ONLY colors that are close to this pantone/cmyk value. Any other color I can think to print comes out perfectly.

Added a new photo direct from the phone. I did remove one color swatch to compare to some other print samples, but since all 3 3M look so similar, hopefully that is enough for a reference.

 

[Andy D]

Is the 18146 18174 dates? meaning 06-14-18 and 04-17-18? If so, which two darker blues on the left were printed 1st?
The reason I ask is, I have printed stuff, not being aware my printer was missing nozzles, and when I went back to reprint, all
of my nozzles were firing then, so the color was different / darker.
Could it be that you 1st print was miss printed?

 

[FactorDesign]

Is the 18146 18174 dates? meaning 06-14-18 and 04-17-18? If so, which two darker blues on the left were printed 1st?
The reason I ask is, I have printed stuff, not being aware my printer was missing nozzles, and when I went back to reprint, all
of my nozzles were firing then, so the color was different / darker.
Could it be that you 1st print was miss printed?

No, those numbers are the lot numbers written inside the rolls of media. All samples were printed within an hour or so of each other, after doing a manual and automatic cleaning on the machine and verifying that the nozzle check was good.

so far as the first print being misprinted - only in that the colors come out a little too rich, but that has often been the case and was considered normal, hence the 298C 95% opacity setting for the original wrapped column. As you can see from the oracal sample, when using the same test print, without reripping or changing any settings, the file prints fairly oversaturated on the oracal media, but greatly undersaturated on 3M media. This is printed with a profile based on the provided 3M IJ180C profile for our printer/rip, where the only changes made were tiny scale adjustments to account for our printer not printing accurate lengths.