Smallest Desktop Solvent/Latex Vinyl Printer?

[infamuz]

Hello!
To completely simplify this query, I am looking for something as small as possible that'll print good quality CMYK onto small sheets or rolls of vinyl (polymeric/cast etc), Solvent or Latex I guess would be fine.

We regularly make single/one-off domed badges or vinyl prints, and using the wide machines is wasteful and time consuming to do it on big rolls/sheets, and we also work from 2 locations - so having access to something small would be very beneficial.

The smallest I can see is a Roland BN20 which looks fine, but wondering if there's other alternatives I may have missed?

Primarily CMYK, and we don't even really need the cut function as we can easily shift it to a bespoke cutter we have (in both locations)

What do the gurus think?
Cheers

 

[Solventinkjet]

Mutoh has some 24" desktop solvent printers similar to the BN20 just without a cutter. Looks like the Roland is priced better though.

 

[d fleming]

Roland BN 20. I have one coming myself.

 

[Johnny Best]

Gerber Edge, a french canadian, bigben, had one for sale the other day, perfect for decals. 12" wide by whatever.

 

[ikarasu]

I waste maybe 6" on media on my R5070 everytime I print.

The ink cost of a BN20, or foil of a Gerber... not to mention specialty cut media... It doesnt matter if you waste 5 FT of vinyl, I'm sure with a wide format you'd still be coming out ahead in terms of cost. Not to mention how slow the BN20 is... or gerber is for CMYK.

At minimum I'd go for a 30" CJV or something similar.

 

[Saturn]

I ran a Mutoh VJ628/VJ24 for a couple years when I was getting started and it was a great little machine—aside from having to source 24" material... Only weighs around 80-90 pounds with ink, so perfect for wanting to keep something small or occasionally mobile.

I agree with ikarasu though—go 30"+ if there's any way possible. My 64" inch Epson is only marginally more wasteful than the 24" Mutoh was, and you can run 24-30" rolls if desired. Only downside is it's large and weighs 650 lbs.

The 24" Mutoh VJ24 can occasionally be had on sale from (cough) Signwarehouse. Just make sure it comes with proper software/RIP if you need it.

 

[infamuz]

Thanks for the comments. We have a CJV 100 and a 130, but space constraints and a second office where a lot of the smaller custom work is done, is the reason behind the need for a much much smaller desktop machine. We regularly need to just print an A4-area’s worth of something and it’s frustrating overall doing it on the bigger machine that’s all. I wouldn’t fit the CJV 130/100 into the space or I’d consider another.

Isn’t the Gerber Edge foil based? It’s CMYK we need to print. I have looked at those and find them cool, but a bit restrictive, and involved.

But thanks again, will check out a BN20 in person and re assess, and take comments on board!

 

[VizualVoice]

I've got a BN-20a and have absolutely nothing but positive to say about it. The print quality is phenomenal. Sure, it's relatively slow when compared to most any larger machine, but in the grand scheme it's not THAT slow. I rarely find myself waiting on it. And TBH it doesn't sound like that will impede your work flow much from the description of your process. The automated maintenance cycles are nice too, especially since it sounds like you wouldn't be using it all day every day, just a here and there. One thing to be aware of when looking at media, there's a few size windows that won't work (due to location of the pinch rollers), but other than having to work around that with some of the oddball sized offcuts once in a great while I love mine.

Also to the 20A, there's no good reason to do the 20 if you're not needing the metallic or white ink (which suck about as much as on any other solvent printer from every report).

 

[ProSignTN]

Nesting.

 

[Jburns]

Thanks for the comments. We have a CJV 100 and a 130, but space constraints and a second office where a lot of the smaller custom work is done, is the reason behind the need for a much much smaller desktop machine. We regularly need to just print an A4-area’s worth of something and it’s frustrating overall doing it on the bigger machine that’s all. I wouldn’t fit the CJV 130/100 into the space or I’d consider another.

Isn’t the Gerber Edge foil based? It’s CMYK we need to print. I have looked at those and find them cool, but a bit restrictive, and involved.

But thanks again, will check out a BN20 in person and re assess, and take comments on board!

yes the edge is foil based. It can print CMYK ok--can it print photos? not to the same level of quality of an inkjet. But solid spot colors are fantastic- no banding and always repeatable for customers. great for corporate logos. almost no maintenance and the printer has sat for months at a time.
I specialize in very small tiny kiss cut /back cut decals - The colors have zero "grainyness" and lettering is sharp. I can print a sample for you if you private message a file. I just started messing with doming, but working more now with a small CNC router, and doming the infill on small parts.

 

[unmateria]

Bn20 print quality is impressive, but is soooo extremely slow printing and cutting that I cant think a real use for it. We returned it on just some days.

 

[infamuz]

I have done a bit more reading, the BN20 seems painfully slow but good quality.

I've also seen the Mutoh ValueJet VJ-628 after a bit of scouring (and thanks to the above posts) which seems a bit more efficient. DPI seems lower at 720dpi vs a lot of the 1440dpi machines though. Maybe I'll have to try and get a printed sample for comparison.

 

[infamuz]

I've got a BN-20a and have absolutely nothing but positive to say about it. The print quality is phenomenal. Sure, it's relatively slow when compared to most any larger machine, but in the grand scheme it's not THAT slow. I rarely find myself waiting on it. And TBH it doesn't sound like that will impede your work flow much from the description of your process. The automated maintenance cycles are nice too, especially since it sounds like you wouldn't be using it all day every day, just a here and there. One thing to be aware of when looking at media, there's a few size windows that won't work (due to location of the pinch rollers), but other than having to work around that with some of the oddball sized offcuts once in a great while I love mine.

Also to the 20A, there's no good reason to do the 20 if you're not needing the metallic or white ink (which suck about as much as on any other solvent printer from every report).

Sorry meant to tag a reply onto this. Couple of questions then I suppose:

a) The machine when we get it won't be used an awful lot, couple of times a week I guess (it's more for custom one-off jobs), which I know isn't brilliant for any printer but it is what it is. I assume the wash auto-standby cycles take care of interim cleaning and prevents head clogs?

b) Can you set the pinch rollers like on the Mimaki, eg: I can use all of them or set ones - I regularly flick a couple off completely (or change pressure of that one pinch roller) to avoid denting the media in that area. Is that doable still on the BN20?

c) Are they all the same model just with maybe different firmware along the lines that's able to be updated? Or is there a difference between, say, a brand new BN20 now, and a 5yr old one? I assume I could pick a used one up and it be the same functionality as a new one.

And no, we don't need metallics really that much, so a CMYK setup only would work OK.

 

[Solventinkjet]

I have done a bit more reading, the BN20 seems painfully slow but good quality.

I've also seen the Mutoh ValueJet VJ-628 after a bit of scouring (and thanks to the above posts) which seems a bit more efficient. DPI seems lower at 720dpi vs a lot of the 1440dpi machines though. Maybe I'll have to try and get a printed sample for comparison.

The VJ628 can print up to 1440 DPI for sure. It has the exact same head as a BN20 in fact.

 

[gnubler]

Regarding print quality, does it mostly come down to DPI capability of the printer? Or are there other factors like type of media, laminate, or ink?

I outsource all my printing, mostly Signs 365. The quality is good, but not good enough for small print and crisp lines to print, for example, small bottle/product labels. I'm also in the market do to short run die cut stickers and have been looking at bringing a smaller printer in house.

 

[Solventinkjet]

Regarding print quality, does it mostly come down to DPI capability of the printer? Or are there other factors like type of media, laminate, or ink?

I outsource all my printing, mostly Signs 365. The quality is good, but not good enough for small print and crisp lines to print, for example, small bottle/product labels. I'm also in the market do to short run die cut stickers and have been looking at bringing a smaller printer in house.

Signs365 prints with Latex machines for their vinyl products and they print at a fairly middle of the road resolution so they can pump stuff out all day. If you want to be able to do fine detailed printing, get anything with an Epson head in it like the Mutoh VJ628, Roland BN20, or Mimaki CJV150 series. An actual Epson would work too but they don't make smaller versions.

 

[infamuz]

The VJ628 can print up to 1440 DPI for sure. It has the exact same head as a BN20 in fact.

Ah right, a lot said 720 but having looked again it does seem like 1440 is an option. It's the speed putting me off it at the moment. I am swaying to Mutoh.

Regarding print quality, does it mostly come down to DPI capability of the printer? Or are there other factors like type of media, laminate, or ink?

I outsource all my printing, mostly Signs 365. The quality is good, but not good enough for small print and crisp lines to print, for example, small bottle/product labels. I'm also in the market do to short run die cut stickers and have been looking at bringing a smaller printer in house.

None of it can be outsourced, and sometimes work is done under license and it has to be done here for a few reasons beyond our control. I have printed on low pass rate on our Mimaki and wasn't happy, so tend to do things 24 pass uni-directional. If I can mimic the Mimaki quality and speed I'd be happy.

I will see if I can see both machines in action, although there's a Youtube vid which is good, and shows the speed comparison vs both the machines. But quality I suppose will be the ultimate defining reason for one or the other, and speed second. (size the main thing, but after that..!)

 

[Saturn]

Regarding print quality, does it mostly come down to DPI capability of the printer? Or are there other factors like type of media, laminate, or ink?

I outsource all my printing, mostly Signs 365. The quality is good, but not good enough for small print and crisp lines to print, for example, small bottle/product labels. I'm also in the market do to short run die cut stickers and have been looking at bringing a smaller printer in house.

Going from the VJ628 to an S80600 I was most impressed by the addition of the Light Inks.

The extended color gamut everyone rages about was not as noticeable as the overall diminishment of CMYK "graininess". I feel like I can (and do) print similar quality faster on the Epson because of it—by going with a reduced resolution or number of passes.

That said, I did very much wonder if my extra dollars on the 80600 were really worth it. (They were, but mostly because of the speed and size.) The VJ628 was printing reallllllly well when I got rid of it. It's still trucking along for the new guy too. To get the best out of the 628 you might need to create your own profile though... Which can be done with a cheap X-Rite i1 and month of Flexi's full version.

Speed is a HUGE factor, even for a one-person shop once you get a decent amount of customers. The BN20 or machines with integrated cutters might be fine in some cases, but there's nothing like being able to double or triple your output. When a 7-8 hour job suddenly becomes 3-4... it's definitely cause for celebration and probably worth every penny you can spend on it.

 

[Saturn]

I do think you're going to run into issues only printing once or twice a week though. You WILL have to get your hands dirty at some point in the first year or two if that's all you're pumping through it...

 

[Solventinkjet]

The extended color gamut everyone rages about was not as noticeable as the overall diminishment of CMYK "graininess". I feel like I can (and do) print similar quality faster on the Epson because of it—by going with a reduced resolution or number of passes.

That's a good observation because light colors don't add gamut but they do reduce graininess! You need a color like orange or green etc to improve gamut on CMYK printers.