Trouble with PMS colors between Illustrator and Flexi on Mutoh

[SignPros]

I use Illustrator CC on a Mac for design. Our production computer is a Windows machine running Flexi 11 that we got when we bought our 1624. I have a PMS swatch chart that I printed on IJ35 hanging on the wall for my own reference using the ICC profiles loaded from Mutoh when the machine was set up. The nozzle check is nearly perfect...missing only part of one nozzle in the black section (literally like one 1/8" line). I'm using Mutoh inks.

The problem is that if I set a piece of art in, say, PMS 281 in Illustrator on my Mac, save it out as an eps, then drop it directly into Flexi Production Manager and print it using the same IJ35 profile on IJ35, my output is NOT PMS281. It happens almost without fail across colors. I'm not even worried about what it looks like on the screen. The whole point of PMS colors is that it's a dead-reliable method for color. I realize that the printer might shift a little bit, but that's why I printed the swatch chart. If I find the color I want to use on that chart, and it's 281 and I set the art to 281 in my computer, theoretically the printer should kick it out in 281, regardless of any shift, since the swatch chart was printed with that same shift. But it doesn't seem to work that way. It's not that all colors are too magenta, or all colors are too little yellow, or any specific pattern to the variance that we can see. They're just all...off. The only way to achieve true color is to import the art into Illustrator and change the color to PMS 281 and then print it from there. THEN it will come out matching the swatch chart on the wall.

Is there a setting somewhere in PM or Flexi that I need to check to 'always reference PMS' or something? I know it's gotta be an adjustment or setting that I just don't have right, but I'm at a loss.

 

[Solventinkjet]

First, I'll get the obligatory answer out of the way. 4 color process and PMS colors are created in completely different ways from each other and therefor you cannot perfectly recreate every PMS color using CMYK composites. Making your own profiles is the best way to match specific colors blah blah blah. It' sounds like you know that stuff and the real problem is why files directly from the Mac to the RIP are printing different colors from the ones that get re-saved in illustrator first.

I'm guessing that the Mac version of Illustrator uses a default color input profile that is different from the default input profile for PCs and that when you open the file in Illustrator on the PC, it applies the PC's default input color profile. Look in the color settings in illustrator on your Mac and PC and see what input profiles they are using. If they are different, that's the problem. When you send a file to the RIP it looks at the color space it was designed in and handles it accordingly. If you send the same file using a different input profiles to the RIP it will print different as well no matter what the output profile is.

 

[ColorCrest]

“EPS is considered a zombie format and hasn’t been upgraded this millennium. EPS has never supported ICC color management nor transparency. When saving an EPS from Illustrator, a complete Ai file is always embedded and the EPS portion is version 3 as there has been no higher version.”

So, the first place to start troubleshooting is saving the file as a native Ai if you think your RIP can handle that. Also save the file as a PDF and pay attention to any alerts regarding profiles.

Be sure your RIP honors the ICC input profile of your document and the ICC output profile for your printer / media / ink setup.

 

[dypinc]

You need use named spot colors that are in your RIPs spot color library. Then print a color chart with the output CMYK values variations then choose those values for the spot color that is the best match and enter that into your library. Then you don't need to worry about CMYK input values and input profiles.

 

[SignPros]

You need use named spot colors that are in your RIPs spot color library. Then print a color chart with the output CMYK values variations then choose those values for the spot color that is the best match and enter that into your library. Then you don't need to worry about CMYK input values and input profiles.

In Flexi's Production Manager? There's not specific named spot colors, that I know of. There are some native spot colors in Flexi by default, but you can also load color books, including Pantone colors. It loads them in as a separate palette below the default palette. If there are spot colors actually IN PM, where do I find them?

 

[Andy_warp]

I agree that .eps is not the way to go. Pdf's!

The way my rip works is only with named spot colors...it can't be changed to process. It might still "say" pms 281 or 281c copy...but if it is not still set to book color and a spot the rip doesn't pick it up.
Caldera has a dialog that comes up when you open your file that lists the spot colors...if they are process nothing comes up in that dialog.

I constantly am swapping better matches for different pantones. I use my swatches on the wall to target the best color match then apply that spot color in Illustrator. It works great as long as you keep good records.
My profile has the black generation set a little heavy, and the fabric I print on is a little cool, so the profile wants to run cool. In digital printing the way to use Pantones is as a baseline...not an absolute.

What you want to get at are your "device" values. They only work when inputting into the rip as a color replacement.

For instance if my rip renders PMS 485C at 5/100/90/5 then that is great. I can hit that every time as long as it is changed directly in the rip software. If I build a cmyk swatch in Illustrator with that same build...it's different. The rip is doing it's job by trying to interpolate the illustrator build to MY ink gamut.

For accuracy...figure out how to get at your device builds.

 

[Andy_warp]

I agree that .eps is not the way to go. Pdf's!

The way my rip works is only with named spot colors...it can't be changed to process. It might still "say" pms 281 or 281c copy...but if it is not still set to book color and a spot the rip doesn't pick it up.
Caldera has a dialog that comes up when you open your file that lists the spot colors...if they are process nothing comes up in that dialog.

I constantly am swapping better matches for different pantones. I use my swatches on the wall to target the best color match then apply that spot color in Illustrator. It works great as long as you keep good records.
My profile has the black generation set a little heavy, and the fabric I print on is a little cool, so the profile wants to run cool. In digital printing the way to use Pantones is as a baseline...not an absolute.

What you want to get at are your "device" values. They only work when inputting into the rip as a color replacement.

For instance if my rip renders PMS 485C at 5/100/90/5 then that is great. I can hit that every time as long as it is changed directly in the rip software. If I build a cmyk swatch in Illustrator with that same build...it's different. The rip is doing it's job by trying to interpolate the illustrator build to MY ink gamut.

For accuracy...figure out how to get at your device builds.

And what do you do with out of gamut colors that have to be tested and tweaked for a good match? You end up with a highly sophisticated method like what you see attached here.
Like I said...customers don't get to see this as it only works for my specific print condition.