Versaworks pure red on white suddenly not working

[burney]

Im back again ,this site is always a last resort but i think its good to post these problems as it helps others,ive had messages saying thanks for posting the last problem so all good.

Ok so suddenly my print my red on white is orangey, this is driving me mad, i dont know why it started all of a sudden.

So in versaworks ,the version was 5.5.1 but i reinstalled it and now its 5.0.0 i cant find the 5.5.1 version. but the problem is the same,reinstalling didnt help.

Settings in VW
Quality: Roland DG Generic clear PET film
Mode: W->CMYKlclmlk(v)

now this is the part doing my head in. in the file format under spot colours im using red and black
red is the problem here and when set as above the red says : RVW-roland colour system,library output : C3.9 M96.1 Y96.1 K3.9

Why is is setting these parameters for red using pet clear?

If i change the setting to generic vinyl 1 the red is as it should be: C:0 M:100 Y:100 K:00
and this prints a nice vibrant red as it always has.

WHY can i not get this red setting when using Clear film setting?
i need to print a white background with a red top on clear vinyl.


Even if i tick the box (use spot colour library) and manually change the CMYK it still prints orangey

 

[burney]

Probably easier to explain with pictures.
This is the same file,the only difference is one is media type: generic vinyl 1 (which i cant print white with) but the red is showing correct , and the other picture is media type: pet film (the only option that prints white ink) ,the red is wrong .
Even if i change the settings it still prints out orangey when Pet film is selected.
this is driving me mad,i dont know why it suddenly went wrong but im in a bit of a mess now having uninstalled and reinstalled. i did have version 5.5.1 but now its 5.5.0, i dont know if that will make any difference it just isnt what ive been using for a long time.

send help please

 

[SGC]

Can you not print white with the generic profile?

 

[burney]

Can you not print white with the generic profile?

No ,otherwise i would.
you can only print white using the clear pet film media setting.
This has never been a problem before,i don`t know why it is now.

See pic, why is the library output not matching the printer output?
What is determining the printer output?

 

[weyandsign]

What is your design program? Can you change your red in the design to regular CMYK instead of using Roland color library?

 

[BigNate]

I believe the problem you are having is that most inks are translucent and they work by removing colors of light as the light passes through the ink - so there needs to be something neutral (white) behind the ink to allow the light to reflect back through. However, you can also use opaque inks (not vey common, and usually corrected by adding white behind the image)... in the offset world you could mix opaque white into the inks and create your own opaque inks - the difference here is all the light coming back off the printed color is reflected back from inside the ink layer, not from the substrate.

anytime you print translucent (normal) inks onto a clear media you will not get the correct color... you can verify that the color profile is correct by placing a nice white sheet of paper behind the clear substrate with the "orange" print and watch it turn to the correct color.... Unfortunately I do not think you will find a profile of translucent inks that display red on a clear substrate... you will need an opaque layer, either white behind or opaque inks.

 

[burney]

@ bignate it has nothing to do with translucent inks at all,however this is why i need to have Pet film clear selected because its the only option you can print a white background with.
Red is the problem here

weyandsign i use roland spot colours,i`m not looking for work arounds im looking for the solution,i should be able to select the spot colour and it sets the correct CMYK levels but for some reason it isnt. I have thousands of files that all use roland spot colours


i don`t think people are understanding the problem here and i`ve had a roland engineer on my computer today and he is baffled and cant work it out,hes gone away with my file to see if its the same on other printers.

It`s not that the colour doesn't appear red because it`s on clear vinyl, it ISN'T red.

I`m asking versaworks to use PR43K which is solid red , that is CMYK: C:0 M:100 Y:100 K:0

It does this correctly when media: generic vinyl 1 is selected but when media: PET film clear is selected (which is the only way to print white ink) It`s saying CMYK is C:3.9 M: 96.1 Y: 96.1 K: 3.9

you can see in this picture PR43K is : 0 100 100 0 but when selected its creating the wrong CMYK numbers

 

[BigNate]

@ bignate it has nothing to do with translucent inks at all,however this is why i need to have Pet film clear selected because its the only option you can print a white background with.
Red is the problem here

weyandsign i use roland spot colours,i`m not looking for work arounds im looking for the solution,i should be able to select the spot colour and it sets the correct CMYK levels but for some reason it isnt. I have thousands of files that all use roland spot colours


i don`t think people are understanding the problem here and i`ve had a roland engineer on my computer today and he is baffled and cant work it out,hes gone away with my file to see if its the same on other printers.

It`s not that the colour doesn't appear red because it`s on clear vinyl, it ISN'T red.

I`m asking versaworks to use PR43K which is solid red , that is CMYK: C:0 M:100 Y:100 K:0

It does this correctly when media: generic vinyl 1 is selected but when media: PET film clear is selected (which is the only way to print white ink) It`s saying CMYK is C:3.9 M: 96.1 Y: 96.1 K: 3.9

you can see in this picture PR43K is : 0 100 100 0 but when selected its creating the wrong CMYK numbers

what does the print on clear look like when placed on an opaque white background? I would bet it looks much closer to the red you have spec'd.... if you cannot print whit behind the image (your stated you want to print white, but it will only let you if you say you are printing on PET film...) then you are printing profiles that need white behind them and are printing on clear - this is a feature of the types of ink we use. People may think about it differently, but that does not change the physics of how inks and light interact.....

here is a sample of what I am talking about - for yours, the orange is your red profile minus a lot of white. here is an image that is all the same print, but half is on white and displays correctly, the left half has nothing behind it and displays lighter - just as your did... Transparent inks are what you are using. as such you need white behind it, or to change to opaque inks.

 

[burney]

No please stop, you are really directing this in the completely wrong direction,it has literally nothing to do with transparency.

Anyone else that reads this please ignore the above,it has nothing to do with the problem.

Thanks for the input but it`s just not what i`m talking about at all.

The whole point of printing white is so it has a background but that isn't the problem and i don`t even want to talk about it and dilute my point for anyone else that comes here.

So thanks but no.

ive posted it twice but ill post it again
In short i need PET films media setting to use spot colours as i ask it to. im trying to find out why it suddenly isn't doing it and instead it wants to print CMYK C:3.9 M: 96.1 Y: 96.1 K: 3.9

the end with transparency talk thank you. infact it would be appreciated if you deleted your replies just to keep this on the track i need.

 

[BigNate]

No please stop, you are really directing this in the completely wrong direction,it has literally nothing to do with transparency.

Anyone else that reads this please ignore the above,it has nothing to do with the problem.

Thanks for the input but it`s just not what i`m talking about at all.

The whole point of printing white is so it has a background but that isn't the problem and i don`t even want to talk about it and dilute my point for anyone else that comes here.

So thanks but no.

ive posted it twice but ill post it again
In short i need PET films media setting to use spot colours as i ask it to. im trying to find out why it suddenly isn't doing it and instead it wants to print CMYK C:3.9 M: 96.1 Y: 96.1 K: 3.9

the end with transparency talk thank you. infact it would be appreciated if you deleted your replies just to keep this on the track i need.

no worries, keep following how to profile without white - or make the white work for this media on your setup. There are many way to put ink on paper. the physics do not change, but what methods we can practically do is completely driven by both our equipment and our knowledge. best of wishes on making a good red print on the transparent substrate!

 

[burney]

can you delete your replies as you clearly are not absorbing anything ive said and you continue to waffle on about transparency.

you are WAY off of what im talking about, you've convinced yourself so much that you're right that you're refused to listen to what the actual problem is here.
And what you've done is dilute this post to the point that when i get the solution others wont benefit as you are blabbering on about something TOTALLY unrelated.

just delete your replies so i can help other in the future instead of making this thread about you and your completely unrelated `advice`

 

[BigNate]

can you delete your replies as you clearly are not absorbing anything ive said and you continue to waffle on about transparency.

you are WAY off of what im talking about, you've convinced yourself so much that you're right that you're refused to listen to what the actual problem is here.
And what you've done is dilute this post to the point that when i get the solution others wont benefit as you are blabbering on about something TOTALLY unrelated.

just delete your replies so i can help other in the future instead of making this thread about you and your completely unrelated `advice`

no worries - you are also missing the point. YOU have a problem with a profile that should be printing white ink behind the image - you have already said as much. there are many ways to fix this. I have zero first hand knowledge of your equipment as I have never seen you, your shop, or your printers. If some parameter is restricting your setup so that it does not have the needed resources to produce a specific color on a specific media, will your software show that the spot will print, or will it show it blanked out like in your pic?

Here is where your answer lies:

Q: "WHY can i not get this red setting when using Clear film setting?
i need to print a white background with a red top on clear vinyl."

A: because changing to the clear film settings tells the software that it no longer has the resources to reproduce the spot as requested.

backed up by "reinstalling didn't help"

 

[BigNate]

a quick and dirty fix would be to lie to the printer and get the result you want... the better fix is something like profiling a new media/ink or however it works on you printer....

 

[burney]

you are extremely annoying.
kindly sod right off and annoy someone else and dilute their thread.

ill make this thread again and you are NOT invited.,

GO AWAY

 

[cornholio]

You could print your white layer in the film setting and also with go back to point zero after printing in the cut setting. Then print your red with the generic vinyl setting. If you do this, it's a good idea to create a rectangle around your design to keep the registration correct. (When Roland first introduced white ink, this was the way to do it...)

 

[burney]

You could print your white layer in the film setting and also with go back to point zero after printing in the cut setting. Then print your red with the generic vinyl setting. If you do this, it's a good idea to create a rectangle around your design to keep the registration correct. (When Roland first introduced white ink, this was the way to do it...)

Yes,but im not looking for a workaround I can make another profile,i`m fine tuning one now but i`m trying to find out why i can`t suddenly use the clear film setting with a solid red.
The roland engineer is baffled too.
If someone who has white ink config could see what versaworks says for them when media type clear vinyl is selected (see picture 1) and tell me what the CMYK says for them (see picture 2) it would be appreciated
This is the test file https://fastupload.io/7e5b869ab878a3cc it`s just pure red on white.

Ive run this set up for years using PET film clear media type

 

[burney]

I really dont know whats going on now, forgetting about the white and the clear film for now,ive loaded up a file using generic vinyl 1 and the printer output isn't matching the library output (spot colours)
why why why?

 

[burney]

this is really weird, i loaded up my old pc that has versaworks on,it was not connected to the printer via network cable.
The settings for red whilst clear pet film was selected for the media was correct!!! yipeee, i i thought ill run a test through that PC but as soon as i connected the network cable the out colour parameters changed.

what the hell is going on? I mean this suggests its the printer telling versaworks what to do, i said i had my suspicions it was the printer but the engineer said no the printer is dumb it doesnt tell the computer what to do but it clearly is.

So WHY and HOW is the printer telling versa works to change the CMYK?

it would be rather helpful if someone has a white ink set up and can load the file up above to tell me if the spot colours are showing correct.
But it really seems to me its the printer telling versaworks the wrong information at the moment.

 

[burney]

I went into service mode to see what i could see,
i did a cartridge check I/S menu,cartridge and found `ic check slot 1 error` and also slot 3 no IC chip!!, i checked that and weirdly there was no chip on the cartridge,so i replaced it with a cartridge with a chip and that error was gone but it still leaves slot 1 error which is light cyan.

im wondering if this is the problem and the machine is telling VW to adjust ,even tho Light Cyan isnt used for red.
I don`t know im totally guessing at this point but it sure looks like its messages from the printer to VW that is causing my problems

test prints are all fine too.
I wonder if there is a way to reset the printer completely.