What is with this sign?

[Jean Shimp]

A local apartment complex called us about replacing their pool rules sign. The photo shows the condition of their current sign. The letters are raised. I'm not sure what material the sign is made out of. On first glance it looked like CNC routed HDU. But looking closely you can see that the letters are too sharp for a router bit to have cut them. I am thinking this sign was done by a laser? What is happening to the letters? They have chunks falling off. It doesn't look like birds or insect damage.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

maybe kids picking at it

 

[DL Signs]

They're probably just flat cut PVC letters, companies like Gemini sell them. PVC isn't really the best for outdoor use, and it's probably in the sun all day. They get brittle, anything hits or picks at it and they fall apart.

If they want the same style, go with the flat cut metal letters, a bit more, but they won't have to keep replacing them.

 

[White Haus]

Possibly used laser cut tactile material?

Rowmark | ADA Alternative

ADA Alternative is a matte product line specially designed by Rowmark to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) Federal regulations.

www.rowmark.com

 

[Jean Shimp]

They're probably just flat cut PVC letters, companies like Gemini sell them. PVC isn't really the best for outdoor use, and it's probably in the sun all day. They get brittle, anything hits or picks at it and they fall apart.

If they want the same style, go with the flat cut metal letters, a bit more, but they won't have to keep replacing them.

Thanks for your reply. This is a pool rules sign that is loaded with letters and they are perfectly spaced. It would take a LOT of time to set each letter and I don't see any evidence of adhesive or tape residue where the missing parts are. The sign looks too perfect to be done by manually applying the letters. The size of the sign is 40" wide and 50" tall. The size of the letters are 1" high.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Thanks for your reply. This is a pool rules sign that is loaded with letters and they are perfectly spaced. It would take a LOT of time to set each letter and I don't see any evidence of adhesive or tape residue where the missing parts are. The sign looks too perfect to be done by manually applying the letters. The size of the sign is 40" wide and 50" tall. The size of the letters are 1" high.

That's what pattern are for

 

[LizKeenan]

It looks mutoh printed to me, or something similar that has a buildable print fill for tactile. In my experience rowmark doesn’t typically erode like this, but kids and a pool environment could do weird things.

We used to second surface print a lot for things in locations people liked to pick, or around children.

 

[AndersonSignCo]

Is there any bevel that would indicate that the material was cut using a very narrow engraving bit? That's what I would have done back in the day...

 

[pro-UP]

Thanks for your reply. This is a pool rules sign that is loaded with letters and they are perfectly spaced. It would take a LOT of time to set each letter and I don't see any evidence of adhesive or tape residue where the missing parts are. The sign looks too perfect to be done by manually applying the letters. The size of the sign is 40" wide and 50" tall. The size of the letters are 1" high.

Finish peeling the "L" off and see if there is adhesive on the back. Let us know what you find out. : )

 

[Broome Signs]

Looks like ADA or DDA 1/16" material to me, normally has clear 3m tape on the rear side,
can be laser cut or rotary cut, we do both depending on the aplication.
I would suspect somebody has been picking at it. normally some kid waiting for a ride home

pb

 

[Ron at Forest Litho]

If the letters were cut acrylic they might have lasted longer but Outdoors is notoriously bad for composite signs. . How about if the letters were carved INTO a multi layered Acryllic sheet. You know where its white 3/16" acryllic with 1/16" Black melded on each side. So if an router routs out the black, all the letters are white and carved into the sign!

 

[Jean Shimp]

Is there any bevel that would indicate that the material was cut using a very narrow engraving bit? That's what I would have done back in the day...

No there is no bevel or indication that this sign was done with a router.

 

[Jean Shimp]

Finish peeling the "L" off and see if there is adhesive on the back. Let us know what you find out. : )

I am not able to visit this sign but I can tell you, based on several photos that the owner sent me, there is no indication of adhesive residue where the letters are missing pieces.

 

[Jean Shimp]

If the letters were cut acrylic they might have lasted longer but Outdoors is notoriously bad for composite signs. . How about if the letters were carved INTO a multi layered Acryllic sheet. You know where its white 3/16" acryllic with 1/16" Black melded on each side. So if an router routs out the black, all the letters are white and carved into the sign!

That's interesting. Have you made a sign like this? What type of adhesive do you use to "meld" the two pieces of acrylic together before routing?

 

[White Haus]

I am not able to visit this sign but I can tell you, based on several photos that the owner sent me, there is no indication of adhesive residue where the letters are missing pieces.

If there is no adhesive then it must have been built up UV ink, which would also explain why it failed.

I would just sell them a new sign, and not worry about the whole story about how the old sign was made incorrectly.

 

[d fleming]

I am not able to visit this sign but I can tell you, based on several photos that the owner sent me, there is no indication of adhesive residue where the letters are missing pieces.

Of course not, that's why they're missing. Sell them an acm and vinyl pool rules sign and move on if you can.

 

[Jean Shimp]

If there is no adhesive then it must have been built up UV ink, which would also explain why it failed.

I would just sell them a new sign, and not worry about the whole story about how the old sign was made incorrectly.

Guess I'm living in the dark ages. I do not know about making signs by using built up UV ink. What type of equipment does this type of fabrication? I would like to know more about this and what type of materials are used.

 

[Boudica]

Guess I'm living in the dark ages. I do not know about making signs by using built up UV ink. What type of equipment does this type of fabrication? I would like to know more about this and what type of materials are used.

with some UV flatbed printers, you can print in multiple layers. The UV ink is thick, and as it layers up it gets thicker. I don't know if all printers can do this - ours can (Agfa Annapurna) but I've never had the need to try it. We do 5-layer printing for 2-sided window graphics, and that get's pretty thick, but I've never explored the capabilities of printing braille or something thick.
As others have said, I would sell them some new signs produced within your capabilities. And fitting for a pool environment.

 

[Boudica]

I am not able to visit this sign but I can tell you, based on several photos that the owner sent me, there is no indication of adhesive residue where the letters are missing pieces.

So what is that we are seeing where the letters used to be? Definitely some ghosting of some kind. When I first looked at the image, it 100% looks like vinyl that someone peeled off - but I can't explain the shadows on the letters.

 

[DL Signs]

Thanks for your reply. This is a pool rules sign that is loaded with letters and they are perfectly spaced. It would take a LOT of time to set each letter and I don't see any evidence of adhesive or tape residue where the missing parts are. The sign looks too perfect to be done by manually applying the letters. The size of the sign is 40" wide and 50" tall. The size of the letters are 1" high.

The process for lettering like that is it usually gets a transfer adhesive applied to the back side before cutting. PVC is pretty soft, so it can be cut via drag knife rather than a router head, giving nice crisp and clean edges & sharp corners without tool marks like routing leaves behind. After cutting it gets a heavy pre-mask applied to the face before removing it from the cutting table. The release liner is then picked from the transfer adhesive, it's lined up and laid on the sign board. Press it down, remove the pre-mask, and voila... Large amounts of small 3d letters aligned perfectly.

Cutting letters out of thin pvc was kinda popular for a while years ago, there were some companies that did them, others with flatbed cutters and CNC's could do them in house easily, it was marketable... But the thinner PVC that cuts so sweet and easy also breaks down pretty quick, gets brittle, cracks and fails with long term use, especially outdoors, the more UV it gets, the quicker it deteriorates. Think of the vinyl on dashboards of older cars in sunny areas, it cracks, pieces start falling off, and even though there is an adhesive, it's all deteriorated, nothing but a stain left. Plus in a pool area you have chlorine gasses and other things at play helping to degrade things quicker. For longevity, if someone is hell bent on thin dimensional lettering like that you need to use aluminum or acrylic depending on the application. Modern stuff is better than when this was probably done, but you still need the right product for the environment.

Me? I'd play problem solver and talk the customer into something a little more suited for the environment, with a lower cost to make changes to or replace again in the future.