wind load calculation

[UFB Fabrication]

Most engineers will do a quick calc and charge you 100-150 bucks. Have you heard the term you cant fight city hall. Redo the drawing yourself or have it done by eng if required. The customer should have to pony up for the extra time to permit and eng. drawings if needed. As for digging a post hole 6 inches deeper that should take less time that it does to bitch on the intertube about it. To many knuckle heeds are doing stuff that blows over or catches on fire. If you dont like things the way they are and want to change things you should run for mayor or concilman and repeal the laws.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

90mph at 6' above ground on 4x4 rigid vertical plane is about 530 foot pounds so you need to have posts capable of supporting a sustained load of 270 pounds constant (figuring 2 posts). I think a 4 x 4's load rating is about 650 pounds. (Mechanical engineering was a llloooooong time ago).

Hire someone to break down the numbers.

 

[kstompaint]

"If you want to do business in that city, you have to do it by the code." This will probably be the last time I do.

"The customer should have to pony up for the extra time to permit and eng. drawings if needed." But they shouldn't. That's my point. It's an unnecessary waste of time.

" As for digging a post hole 6 inches deeper that should take less time that it does to bitch on the intertube about it. " I agree. That's not at all what I was bitching about. If that were the only problem, the sign would be up by now.
"To many knuckle heeds are doing stuff that blows over or catches on fire." This is just simply a case of that not being possible. It's like having to have a CDL to drive a pick-up truck.

I wasn't posting this to start a political debate. Though I suppose I should have expected those with bigger shops to argue the point.

One of these signs requires engineering, the other requires only common sense.

 

[imagep]

"If you want to do business in that city, you have to do it by the code." This will probably be the last time I do.

"The customer should have to pony up for the extra time to permit and eng. drawings if needed." But they shouldn't. That's my point. It's an unnecessary waste of time.

" As for digging a post hole 6 inches deeper that should take less time that it does to bitch on the intertube about it. " I agree. That's not at all what I was bitching about. If that were the only problem, the sign would be up by now.
"To many knuckle heeds are doing stuff that blows over or catches on fire." This is just simply a case of that not being possible. It's like having to have a CDL to drive a pick-up truck.

I wasn't posting this to start a political debate. Though I suppose I should have expected those with bigger shops to argue the point.

One of these signs requires engineering, the other requires only common sense.

I agree with you 100%. There is a point where regulations are needed, and a point where regulations are just pure bull poop.

There is absolutely no legitimate need for an experianced sign installer to have to have an engineer or even a permit for a structure that weighs less than an average adult human or that occupies less than a total of 20 cubic feet of space. Thats my personal opinion not my legal interpretation.

Just a side note: I personally created the drawings for my commercial building. I signed them, gave them to my general contractor who then turned them in for approval for a building permit. My GC had no problems getting the permit with my drawings. Now, if I am capable of designing a building that weighs hundreds of thosands of pounds and occupies over 100,000 cubic feet - then most certainly most anyone is smart enough to errect a small unlit panel sign that stands no higher than the average adult.

 

[kstompaint]

imagep- that's pretty much where I stand. One guy can pick this whole sign up. The concrete in one hole weighs multiples of what the sign does. I have no problem running a project like this by the local officials to make sure it's within their sq ft guidelines and passes a "common sense" test. Where it goes wrong is when it gets subbed to an engineer who has to justify his existence and his pay check by being a pain in my ass.

 

[evolutionsigns]

I'm just glad I live and work in the UK - we don't have a fraction of the red tape you guys (and girls) do.

Over here, common sense prevails, but I suppose we don't get the extreme weather you do in the states.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

kustom the sad thing is that there are people in our industry who CAN screw it up...as hard as it is for you to imagine let me assure you it is possible. i have seen with my own eyes electrical signs with no wire nuts, not to mention the countless ungrounded electrical signs, non illuminated i have seen signs taped (with masking tape not that it makes a difference what kind of tape) to walls, i have seen post and panel signs that the sign is stapled to the posts with a staple gun, i've seen signs bolted with bolts so short that literally there was a half of a thread in the nut, i've seen more than one sign where the post hole may be 8 to 10" deep with literally a skin of concrete (less than 1") on the top of backfilled dirt to avoid pouring concrete or mixing up a full load...i even caught a owner of a sign company doing this on a project and his response was it was unnecessary...haha..so believe it or not there are ppl in this industry, in any industry who can screw it up. we have reached a point where many municipalities are forced to go to extremes because things have been so bad for so long by unqualified people or people who simply do not care doing poor quality work.

 

[kstompaint]

Dan- I understand what you are saying. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I would be willing to bet that most of those horrible installs were performed by the business owner to save paying for installation. Like I said, I don't have a problem with reasonable hoops to jump through. There's no reason why an engineer has to be involved in this project, it could have and should have been able to be resolved between me and the local officials in less than 2 minutes.

This (along with the documents that I provided from the manufacturers of the products) should have been more than enough for somebody to sign off on this sign.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Kustom and this is why i encourage EVERYONE in the industry to get involved with their local government. Get involved with the writing of your local sign codes. I have been preaching this for years...ideally I would like to see standardization from one municipality to another but I sincerely doubt it will ever happen but a universal sign code would be ideal.

regarding the owners doing the installations..unfortunately i have to report that ALL of the instances that i shared above were done by 'sign companies'...every single one of them...and unfortunately those aren't even the worst things i have seen in this business. i absolutely will not park under a pole mounted aerial sign..no way no how.

i am sorry you have to deal with this, it sounds like it is an unexpected expense. make sure you inform the business owner to check their insurance policy(s) to make sure that their sign is covered in the event of damage so that if it is hit by a car or vandalized they don't have to shoulder the financial responsibility of going through all of this again.

 

[John L]

Kstompaint - It could be worse. As our extreme example... we pulled a county permit for a customer that wanted to install an 18" wall-mounted satellite dish for a weather reciever. The drawings and red tape were unreal for a job as miniscule as this. It required engineer stamps, wind load, 2 county office visits, a zoning permit, a building permit, a low voltage electrical permit, 2 inspections, and 2 permission letters from the landlord (to pull permit and to install). Our permit service fee was hourly based and ended up invoiced at $675 plus permit and engineer costs. Installation took about 20 minutes.

Since they told you the drawings do not require an engineer stamp I really don't think you are as buried by the game like this. Why don't you just stop by the municipal office Tuesday morning ask to speak with the plan reviewer for a couple of minutes. Explain your situation and just ask for some personal advice right from the person that is requiring the compliance. This person already knows the answer to the question being asked of you (or can calculate it in just a few quick seconds). Let them "set you straight" and tell you what they expect and I bet it will all shake out well for you.

And don't forget to charge up your customer for the permit procurement service you are providing them.

Wish you the best of luck.

 

[kstompaint]

Since they told you the drawings do not require an engineer stamp I really don't think you are as buried by the game like this. Why don't you just stop by the municipal office Tuesday morning ask to speak with the plan reviewer for a couple of minutes. Explain your situation and just ask for some personal advice right from the person that is requiring the compliance. This person already knows the answer to the question being asked of you (or can calculate it in just a few quick seconds). Let them "set you straight" and tell you what they expect and I bet it will all shake out well for you.

John- The problem with your suggestion (besides it being based on common sense) is that it's a small municipality that subs all the permitting out to a third party... and the guy in charge of it is an a#% h&@#. He's on a typical Barney Fife power trip. He won't meet with me or give me any advice, he just demands the "proper information." He'll only tell me what's wrong, not what's right. I'm starting to sound like a broken record here. Like arguing politics or religion with somebody that's just not on the same page as you, it's futile. Anybody that thinks it's reasonable for this much red tape to permit a 6' tall 16 sq' sign is just never going to reconcile it with me, or visa-versa. Common sense would dictate to anybody that has any that the drawing that I submitted (above) and the described installation is MORE than sufficient for a job of this minimal scale.

 

[John L]

I see. Maybe go on up.... How about asking the mayor (in writing is always best because they are always wondering who else got a copy) if maybe he/she could ask the reviewer for a little input on your behalf, or maybe even an example of a similarly simple, approved installation.

You're not brow-beating anyone, you are just a nice guy looking for a little help. In your letter, reference the fact that the reviewer hasn't been able to help you thus far, but that it must only be because he/she is too busy right now. So you are asking if there is anyone else who might be in charge of handling the work overload. Eluding to things like this set the wheels in motion for me sometimes.

Hope this helps in some way, good luck.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

knows it's worse here I also avoid any job that requires permitting, another sign company wanted to put a 2X 16 sign on build $450 engineer stamp cost to tell him he need to use lag bolts every 4 ft egad so I avoid.

I know very well how to make a sign withstand 180 mph winds and if not research, then over build and or secure ...easy I do not want someone getting hurt during a high wind storm and for small signage with little or no threat.

Bigger stuff well I don't have the finances to sell or build so not my problem.

I would go to any meeting about signage but they hide meetings times and subjects and don't listen anyway except if your high dollar. Besides our inspectors and enforcement pick and choose who to shake down for what ever.

 

[royster13]

You keep talking about what is reasonable......That is not the issue for a municipality....It it is about liability, lawyers and law suits.....Cover Their Ass is their point....

It may be that the municipality in question is a member of your state's municipal risk pool and the pool has recommended that certain rules be enacted....

And do not think that the rules are going to get any easier....As the cost of lawsuits go up, so does the cost of liability insurance for municipalities.....And any "risk management" procedures they put in place reduces the costs to tax payers in general....And unfortunately it mean higher costs for those that undertake activities that may put them in the minority.....

And as far as local officials, not being helpful.....That to is because of threat of lawsuits for being accused of giving information that somehow gets interpreted differently by the person receiving the information versus the person giving the information....

PS....I spent a number of years on the board of a municipal risk pool in British Columbia...During my tenure on the board I saw lots of claims and lawsuits...And with every claim and/or lawsuit there was a review and often recommendations to member municipalities about new rules they should put in place to keep claims costs down....

 

[Malkin]

Just though I would point out that this thread is #66666

carry on...

 

[kstompaint]

Just though I would point out that this thread is #66666

Lawyers, engineers and politicians... oh my!

 

[G-Artist]

I have run into idiots at both the permit office as well as the construction licensing board and several times with the inspectors. Luckily, I have only been red tagged once and that was in error as the inspector failed to do the math correctly.

To defeat them, I rummage through their files (public records) and photocopy anything they have approved in the past that is directly related to what we would be installing (assuming the code hasn't changed in the interim) and use that at a base. All we do is change the personal stuff and use the rest - verbatim.

If they fail to approve our stuff, our lawyer or the client's lawyer sends them a letter of inquiry as to the discrepancy which is cc'd to the city council person or county commissioner who covers that area. Once we even had the landlord's lawyer do that as the landlord felt the city was out to screw him (discriminate) via messing with his tennants.

That has worked each and every time in the past. Most of the time we are called within the week to come and pickup the permit.