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3/8" zinc ada
- Thread starter FASTSIGNS
- Start date
One of the top rules in sign making is ignore any material spec from an architect. They aren't sign makers. They try to be specific to help but they use either the wrong terms or antiquated terms.
Just spec out aluminum and plastic and let them pick which they want. It's getting painted anyway so it really shouldn't matter one bit which means they're going to use acrylic.
Just spec out aluminum and plastic and let them pick which they want. It's getting painted anyway so it really shouldn't matter one bit which means they're going to use acrylic.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
This is a huge pet peeve of mine, Architects put out these tender packages with elaborate specs, you quote it based on spec, don't get the job and find out that whoever did the job just used standard materials.
I've tried calling them a few times and explaining that we can achieve the same look for a fraction of the cost if we change the material from X to Y, the response is always the same "submit a quote for the job as spec'd and if you want to submit a second quote for your method we will consider it".
I think a lot of the time, the architect has a sign company they prefer to use, but since they have to get 3 quotes the write these elaborate specs so the other 2 companies bidding come in with very high pricing and the company they want to use quotes it out of standard materials.
My favorite was when I got a spec for standard 12"x18" parking signs, but the spec called for powder coated steel signs, I called them and told them no one uses steel anymore for these it's all aluminum now, they insisted on steel, I passed on the job, went by a few months later and low and behold aluminum signs were installed.
I've tried calling them a few times and explaining that we can achieve the same look for a fraction of the cost if we change the material from X to Y, the response is always the same "submit a quote for the job as spec'd and if you want to submit a second quote for your method we will consider it".
I think a lot of the time, the architect has a sign company they prefer to use, but since they have to get 3 quotes the write these elaborate specs so the other 2 companies bidding come in with very high pricing and the company they want to use quotes it out of standard materials.
My favorite was when I got a spec for standard 12"x18" parking signs, but the spec called for powder coated steel signs, I called them and told them no one uses steel anymore for these it's all aluminum now, they insisted on steel, I passed on the job, went by a few months later and low and behold aluminum signs were installed.
visual800
Active Member
I NEVER contact them for anything. I quote what is the best for the situation. If it says injection molded letters and I can do 1" PVC cheaper THATS what i quote and I indicate that. They really need to stay the hell out of our business. Sometimes when i read their description of a substrate or letter I have no idea WTH they are talking about
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Around here, bidding on something other than the spec without approval is a sure fire way to get your quote rejected, and if they happen to find out after the contract has been awarded you are on the hook to give them what the asked for at the price you quoted.
visual800
Active Member
I understand what you are saying. I dont know whether you get alot of these jobs but it doesnt sound like it. When I quote a large job and I see the architect has specd out some off the wall BS that was popular in the late 80s I just make a notation of that product and replace it with a more sensible product. And you say they will kick your quote out if they see you havent fllowed specs? BS
When companies are bidding large jobs the ONLY thing they care about is price, they dont give 2 damns if the architect said use blasted redwood and you replaced it with pvc. Thats the way it is down here. larger sign companies do the same thing NO ONE pays attection to the acrchitects specs BECAUSE they dont have a clue about all of our new materials
If you are bidding on jobs and you are bidding they way they asked your going to lose that bid because you have experinced guys bidding like me, replacing their "wants" with what makes sense. I would say we need to educate architects BUT I can tell you after contacting a couple and asking them wth they are talng about they dont like to be questioned, and I did it in a nice professional way
Have you ever noticed that funky list manufacturers they suggest buying materials from usually located in the plans? half those companies arent in biz anymore, lol
visual800
Active Member
This happened a couple of months ago. I promise you this is true.
The architect specd out this hanging sign with 2x3 painted lumber, plywood insert with routed lettering and zinc hardware
with wood shoemold inside border and they had wooden 45 degree cut triangles in each corner for stability
I came back and speced out 3x3 aluminum framing welded with a double sided routed pvc panel inside with all stainless hardware. NOW you tell me whose signage is going to withstand the elements better
Im not saying "Be a rebel" Im saying educate and use the best products possible. We got the job and no issue getting it. This was absurd IMO to even fathom and sign like this was even speced out. Attached is the finished sign along with our quote to them
The architect specd out this hanging sign with 2x3 painted lumber, plywood insert with routed lettering and zinc hardware
with wood shoemold inside border and they had wooden 45 degree cut triangles in each corner for stability
I came back and speced out 3x3 aluminum framing welded with a double sided routed pvc panel inside with all stainless hardware. NOW you tell me whose signage is going to withstand the elements better
Im not saying "Be a rebel" Im saying educate and use the best products possible. We got the job and no issue getting it. This was absurd IMO to even fathom and sign like this was even speced out. Attached is the finished sign along with our quote to them
Attachments
![THE MORGAN SIGN [Converted].jpg](/data/attachments/96/96484-754f17bcfe0c60f2c23c3426b7c606f1.jpg)
Gino
Premium Subscriber
We hafta basically bid the way the request comes through, also. If not, they will reject it, if they know you did this. This is on small scale projects or large ones. Makes no never mind. They want apples to apples, regardless of what you/we think. They don't want substitutions. If you recommend something different, make an optional bid afterwards.
On the other side of this coin, do you know how many bids are lost to people following the rules to some hack, who just goes in willey nilly ?? If I substituted HDU for redwood, we'd be doing it over, in a jiffy. We were just recently accepted on a bid and I made some recommendations, which in my opinion, looked better and was a cost savings. It was denied and they went with the original quote. Their response was........ while we recognize that might've been a better alternative, this is what we want. No sense, but they had a reason. A bad one, but they had one.
Here's one. A few years ago, a friend of mine bid a job. Did exactly what you do. The job was around $400,00.00. He won the job, did it and while installing some of the first signs, they were rejected. He had used white vinyl on the back of clear acrylic, instead of screen printing them. Then, he got caught flatbed printing the copy on the front sides, instead of screen printing them. The specs were a flooded backside and screen printed copy. There were many repeats, so screening was totally doable, except my friend didn't screen print and thought... who would know ?? They wanted longevity, since these were outdoors. We all know how flatbed holds up outside first surface. He was forced to buy all new material, start over and hadda sub out the screen printing. Guess who got that job ??
About 40 years ago, a shop I worked at was doing some signs for a customer. The colors were speced out. After a day or so, one of the painters had finished his portion of the job. He used the correct colors, but at the wrong places. He said, I thought it looked better this way. Dumb F*ck. He was fired that afternoon.
On the other side of this coin, do you know how many bids are lost to people following the rules to some hack, who just goes in willey nilly ?? If I substituted HDU for redwood, we'd be doing it over, in a jiffy. We were just recently accepted on a bid and I made some recommendations, which in my opinion, looked better and was a cost savings. It was denied and they went with the original quote. Their response was........ while we recognize that might've been a better alternative, this is what we want. No sense, but they had a reason. A bad one, but they had one.
Here's one. A few years ago, a friend of mine bid a job. Did exactly what you do. The job was around $400,00.00. He won the job, did it and while installing some of the first signs, they were rejected. He had used white vinyl on the back of clear acrylic, instead of screen printing them. Then, he got caught flatbed printing the copy on the front sides, instead of screen printing them. The specs were a flooded backside and screen printed copy. There were many repeats, so screening was totally doable, except my friend didn't screen print and thought... who would know ?? They wanted longevity, since these were outdoors. We all know how flatbed holds up outside first surface. He was forced to buy all new material, start over and hadda sub out the screen printing. Guess who got that job ??
About 40 years ago, a shop I worked at was doing some signs for a customer. The colors were speced out. After a day or so, one of the painters had finished his portion of the job. He used the correct colors, but at the wrong places. He said, I thought it looked better this way. Dumb F*ck. He was fired that afternoon.
Ditchmiester
New Member
I've been watching this thread and while everyone has had great insight about how to handle dumb specs. No one has answered his question. The answer is you can't buy 3/8" Zinc Sheets. They sell 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" is very hard to find. Unfortunately to the OP you aren't going to be able to find anyone to make these ADA signs out of 3/8 Zinc unless you are going to build up to it using 1/8" sheets.
visual800
Active Member
on the above sign I posted that is far from a being a hack sir. i gave them something sturdy and long lasting instead of something that rust will be running down the face in 1 years time and possibly in 3 years crumble to ground. AND I informed them of how much of a bad idea it was. they didnt have to accept my bid but they did. This is how I do my bids and dont bother bidding it they way they asked, if they want crap they can move right along to the other guy.
nothing wrong with standing up and informing, no hacking.
We might be a little different down her than you guys up north. Once the job has started and there ARE issues with whats been speced the architects will have no part in open discussions on that, they usually respond with "deal with it best you can".....IMO thats their way of not knowing how to deal with it themselves
nothing wrong with standing up and informing, no hacking.
We might be a little different down her than you guys up north. Once the job has started and there ARE issues with whats been speced the architects will have no part in open discussions on that, they usually respond with "deal with it best you can".....IMO thats their way of not knowing how to deal with it themselves
visual800
Active Member
OP needs to post a pic of what they want for us to better understand. is there raised copy in it?
SignProPlus-Alex
New Member
I got specs from architect for 72"x72" 1" thick steel sign . Hanging above entrance. I called him an idiot and he settled for .125 aluminum with 1" return.
Architect worried about look.
Architect worried about look.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I didn't remember calling you, referring to you or anything else as being a hack. So, I went back and re-read my post. Try not to be so defensive.
However, like most of your posts, it's loaded with,in my opinion....... I think........ that's the way we do it. Not much in the way of concrete facts. Therefore, it's hard to advise others to do what you do, based on nonfactual language. It might work, but odds are you could get burnt real bad.
Never heard of someone, not just an architec, specing out a job, you do it differently and they can't come back and call 'Foul'. Lackadaisical approach..... in my opinion. :Oops:
Again... suggestions, options or discussions are always a good way to approach bad ideas set up by some non-knowing designer.
visual800
Active Member
Yep I make mistakes, but I got the job lol
visual800
Active Member
how the hell would you install that lol
hcardwell93
New Member
VHB and pixie dust!
CanuckSigns
Active Member
We do actually get asked to quote on quite a few of these types of projects, possibly not as many as you but enough to know what I'm talking about. I know for a fact that if I substitute a product in a RFQ my quote will be rejected, I am allowed to submit a second quote if i wish, but one of my quotes MUST be as per the spec, it keep the playing field level.
The biggest issue with this process is the liars. They say they're going to give you X and really give Y. There may or may not be an issue when the install is done, but you've already lost the job.
By far my least favorite part of the business is bidding. I absolutely hate it. Rarely are you comparing apples to apples so it makes the whole thing a farce. Even if you compare the same materials, if someone simply prints at a lower quality, it can make all the difference.