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JdBattDesignRCI

New Member
Attn: Admin
If this topic is in the wrong channel please move it to the appropriate channel.

All month I have been struggling with Adobe CC licensing errors on my production PC. I'm running Windows 7 Professional. The license is under my manager's Adobe account but I'm the only one who uses it.

One day in November I start up and I get this popup window:

We can't verify your subscription Status.
Your Adobe CC subscription has ended.

We can't reach the Adobe servers. This may be because you're not connected to the internet. Check your connection and try again below. If you're still having issues, please see our connectivity troubleshooting guide.


Try Again Quit Illustrator


Obviously I am connected to the internet or I wouldn't be typing this message. There is no option to log back in to the Adobe account.

Is there any quick fix for this? Is it a certificate issue? I something broken in the registry? Is it a computer clock issue?
It's not my computer and I'm sort of afraid to go in and delete certificates or registry keys lest I break something permanently.

Now I'm doing design work on my personal Macbook until it's resolved.
 

JdBattDesignRCI

New Member
I get this when I open the Adobe Creative Cloud desktop app and it won't let me do anything. I tried unsynchronizing the clock in Date & Time and re-synchronizing it.
 

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jochwat

Graphics Department
Do you have the software installed and operating on another system, or two? Or three? I ask because perhaps there are more than a couple of instances of the license running, thus knocking you off of yours.
 

jfiscus

Rap Master
We have that same exact issue on one of the older (Windows 7) computers in the office here, thankfully they only use Acrobat.
I tried uninstalling it thinking the install was corrupt, but then they couldn't log in/download the app installer again.
We just replaced the computer at the end of last week, and they haven't been back in the office yet so I don't know if the issue is fixed yet...
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
The problem is very likely Windows 7. None of the current Adobe CC applications or their immediate past versions support Windows 7.
According to Adobe's website CC requires Windows 10 (64-bit) version 1903 and later*
The asterisk says: "*We no longer support older LTSC versions. If you are using an older operating system, the relevant version of the Creative Cloud desktop app applicable to your respective platform and operating system will install."

In the case of Adobe Illustrator the current Windows requirements are:
Windows 10 (64-bit) versions V21H1, V20H2, V1909, and V2004.
Windows Server versions V1607 (2017) and V1809 (2019).
Note: Not supported on Windows 10 versions 1507, 1511, 1607, 1703, 1709, 1803, 1809, and 1903.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I would imagine that it has to do with Win 7 as well. Once you are on rolling release software, have to be on rolling release OS as well.
 

GAC05

Quit buggin' me
Had the same problem - get a support chat going - they will direct you to a fix that you download and it will solve the problem. Something to do with a Win7 library or extension that is needed but not in 7. Took about 10 minutes.
Thought I got a copy of the support log but can't find it.
One of these two fixed it but it would be best to check in with Adobe before running either one (my short and long term memory is also no longer supported):

AdobeLimitedAccessRepairTool.exe
MicrosoftEasyFix51044.msi
 
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Mikee

New Member
Time to update them old PCs or get Macs. Its a big roundabout...

Microsoft is quiting support on win7

Update CC... nope. Update OS... nope Update System... £££ $$$

Apple again will no doult, bring out a new mac soon (architecture/hardware) SO another NEW machine with an UPDATE to CC..!

Anyway... Happy Holidays..!

Mikee
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Mikee said:
Time to update them old PCs or get Macs. Its a big roundabout...

Are you trying to imply Adobe doesn't cut off support for old versions of OSX?

On top of that there is very little in the way of sign industry specific software that runs native on OSX. The sign industry is a very Windows-centric thing. Nearly all applications for routing, vinyl cutting and large format RIP purposes are exclusive to Windows. There is very little of it on the Mac side. And there may be even less once that transition to M1 architecture is complete.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Are you trying to imply Adobe doesn't cut off support for old versions of OSX?
In some ways, they aren't quite a bleeding edge compared to what Windows is doing with their required updates that also push major features. But Apple has much more control over their ecosystem compared to Windows (although that is starting to change).

On top of that there is very little in the way of sign industry specific software that runs native on OSX. The sign industry is a very Windows-centric thing. Nearly all applications for routing, vinyl cutting and large format RIP purposes are exclusive to Windows. There is very little of it on the Mac side. And there may be even less once that transition to M1 architecture is complete.
I'm only aware of Caldera when it comes to the RIP side of things that is Unix-like (I say Unix-like as it is available on Linux and Mac, just not Windows). There was an open source RIP a few yrs ago, but hasn't seen much work lately. Routing and vinyl cutting do have more options out there. Shoot, for cutting, can just setup sans driver a "printer" with Raw HPGL (if the cutter supports it, Rolands do, unless that has changed) and just run your favorite graphics program and go on about your business. Most OSs that I am aware of support Raw HPGL (main thing is if the cutter does as well). Routing is a little different, some will have to mess directly with GCode, some have a nice GUI frontend to handle the "tough bits" for "you". It all just depends.

More and more people are pushing ARM all together, so who knows. I'm not saying that I am for that for a workstation environment, but there are those that would say that. Time will tell.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
In some ways, they aren't quite a bleeding edge compared to what Windows is doing with their required updates that also push major features. But Apple has much more control over their ecosystem compared to Windows (although that is starting to change).

The fact remains both hardware and software on the Mac platform is not safe from being rendered obsolete via updates to the OS. Gotta get the upgrade to keep going. Apple has a 30+ year history of this stuff, going all the way back to the "classic" MacOS. The transition from 040 to PowerPC was painful for many Mac users. I feel sorry for those who invested heavy into Mac clones in the mid-late 90's. Steve Jobs came back, OSX arrived and killed all that clone $#!+. Adobe's earliest "CS" editions didn't maintain forward compatibility with all the incremental updates to OSX. Then the switch to Intel happened. And now there's M1.

The implied notion that Windows is somehow worse at maintaining backward compatibility with existing applications than the MacOS is really pretty ridiculous. If anything, Microsoft has hurt the performance quality and security level of Windows by trying too hard at maintaining backward compatibility. Apple runs a walled garden. They'll pull the plug on a generation of software without warning or change cable connector standards a bunch of times and I guess that's all okay.

WildWestDesigns said:
'm only aware of Caldera when it comes to the RIP side of things that is Unix-like (I say Unix-like as it is available on Linux and Mac, just not Windows). There was an open source RIP a few yrs ago, but hasn't seen much work lately. Routing and vinyl cutting do have more options out there.

Such as?

Flexi had a Mac version back in the 1990's, prior to the Scanvec merger. But that got discontinued. The same goes for other Mac-based sign making software in the 1990's. Gerber's software, SignLab and even lower cost applications like Vinyl Express LXi are Windows-only applications. If there is any commercially sold routing table software for the Mac platform that would be news to me. We run EnRoute at my workplace; that's Windows only.
 
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WildWestDesigns

Active Member
The fact remains both hardware and software on the Mac platform is not safe from being rendered obsolete via updates to the OS. Gotta get the upgrade to keep going. Apple has a 30+ year history of this stuff, going all the way back to the "classic" MacOS. The transition from 040 to PowerPC was painful for many Mac users. I feel sorry for those who invested heavy into Mac clones in the mid-late 90's. Steve Jobs came back, OSX arrived and killed all that clone $#!+. Adobe's earliest "CS" editions didn't maintain forward compatibility with all the incremental updates to OSX. Then the switch to Intel happened. And now there's M1.

The implied notion that Windows is somehow worse at maintaining backward compatibility with existing applications than the MacOS is really pretty ridiculous. If anything, Microsoft has hurt the performance quality and security level of Windows by trying too hard at maintaining backward compatibility. Apple runs a walled garden. They'll pull the plug on a generation of software without warning or change cable connector standards a bunch of times and I guess that's all oka

We run the risk of things being rendered obsolete on any system. That's why it would behoove people to not being reliant on any one software package.

As far as backwards compatibility, I would actually say that Windows, to it's detriment, is too backwards compatible. It's the only system that still has 32 bit libs installed by default (more likely due to the gaming needs as that segment still depends on 32 bit libs) and you have zero days that come to light that date back to the Win 95 days. That's no bueno. A printer related zero day that was discovered on Win 10 comes to mind with that as that particular zero day has been around since Win 95.

As far as option for plotters Inkcut, I think it has options for other machine types as well, is one that has quite a bit of support. Now, it may or may not support the one that you need, but it does have support there for some. It can be used as a plugin for Inkscape or stand alone. Now there are more options (even Blender has an option for routers via a plugin, or at least last I checked), but I doubt things like that would interest you because that would require more down and dirty with GCode, but they are still nonetheless options.

For my cutters, I actually have a "printer" (my Roland cutters) setup to handle the Raw HPGL protocal, so I can use really any graphics program that deals with vectors and do a File->Print. Now, on Linux, I was able to do all that via a GUI, I know some on here aren't fond of the CLI. I know Windows at least did have baked in support for Raw HPGL, so I would imagine that that would be doable. Now, the big thing is does the cutter in question support it. That may not be a solution for everyone, but it is an option out there.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
We run the risk of things being rendered obsolete on any system. That's why it would behoove people to not being reliant on any one software package.

The second you start generating art files with a given application you begin to grow reliant on that piece of software as the collection of work files accumulates. The reliance becomes more compounded or even forced when much of a given industry makes a particular vendor's software the industry standard. That's the advantage Adobe has had for 30+ years. There are no signs of that dominance waning.

The hazard with software is choosing an application that may end up being a sinking ship. All applications depend on popularity with users in order to survive. Applications must be continuously updated to incorporate improvement, fix bugs, adapt to changes in operating systems and to take advantage of improvements in computing hardware. If the company making the software is unstable that puts any files created with it at risk. If the application doesn't remain sufficiently popular with users that puts it and files created using it at risk.

The situation is significantly better on the hardware front. Today it's relatively easy to get a decade of useful life out of a desktop or notebook computer, as long as it was reasonably well-spec'ed when purchased and responsibly maintained thru the years. Back in the 1980's and 1990's computers were considerably more expensive in dollars adjusted for inflation. And their working life spans were much shorter. But those systems were coming from a far more primitive place. Even as recent as the mid 2000's most PCs couldn't play back HD quality video. Today any ordinary smart phone can do that.

WildWestDesigns said:
As far as option for plotters Inkcut, I think it has options for other machine types as well, is one that has quite a bit of support. Now, it may or may not support the one that you need, but it does have support there for some.

On the Mac platform the options for vinyl cutting/plotting is very limited. Plugins for Adobe Illustrator are about all that's available. As far as I can tell all the vinyl cutting plugins for CorelDRAW are made only for the Windows version.

For routing table work, I'm not going to use some Jerry-rigged hack from Blender or anything like that in a production environment. Time=money. Any sign shop using Macs for design purposes yet has a routing table in-house is very likely having to use a lowly, icky, dirty, inferior Windows PC to prepare files and run that table.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
The second you start generating art files with a given application you begin to grow reliant on that piece of software as the collection of work files accumulates. The reliance becomes more compounded or even forced when much of a given industry makes a particular vendor's software the industry standard. That's the advantage Adobe has had for 30+ years. There are no signs of that dominance waning.

Trust me I know this. 1994 until 2015 I have been using Adobe. When I switched (not only software but OS), it's a pain. However, my bottom line has actually done better since going away without sacrificing quality or abilities.

The hazard with software is choosing an application that may end up being a sinking ship. All applications depend on popularity with users in order to survive. Applications must be continuously updated to incorporate improvement, fix bugs, adapt to changes in operating systems and to take advantage of improvements in computing hardware. If the company making the software is unstable that puts any files created with it at risk. If the application doesn't remain sufficiently popular with users that puts it and files created using it at risk.

I agree. However, constant iteration (which is your basic improvements, UI changes, stability etc) does not constitute worthy of SaaS types of service. And I am sure we can think of popular applications that have been bought up and later killed off, so there really is no promises. We could also see applications loose 3rd party blobs of code that make them less useful as well. There are no promises what so ever, that's why, again, it's better to be able to go with the flow (so to speak).

The situation is significantly better on the hardware front. Today it's relatively easy to get a decade of useful life out of a desktop or notebook computer, as long as it was reasonably well-spec'ed when purchased and responsibly maintained thru the years. Back in the 1980's and 1990's computers were considerably more expensive in dollars adjusted for inflation. And their working life spans were much shorter. But those systems were coming from a far more primitive place. Even as recent as the mid 2000's most PCs couldn't play back HD quality video. Today any ordinary smart phone can do that.

Tell that to the people that have 2-3 yr old hardware that fails to meet Windows 11 criteria. Tell that to the set of hardware that was not able to continue to get updates on Win 10. They managed to stop on an LTS version, but after that, no support for MS and that would translate to no support at some point some with their software vendors as well.

Of course, none of these would be an issue as much if we didn't have subscription based software that required a constant online connection as well.
On the Mac platform the options for vinyl cutting/plotting is very limited. Plugins for Adobe Illustrator are about all that's available. As far as I can tell all the vinyl cutting plugins for CorelDRAW are made only for the Windows version.
The aforementioned product that I talked about is available on all platforms.

Given the Unix-Like nature of Mac (BSD in this case), I would imagine that the workaround that I do for Linux, would also work for Mac as well. Again, it would depend on if the plotter accepts Raw HPGL or not, but that could be an option as well and it wouldn't matter what the drawing program is, just so long as it handles vectors.

For routing table work, I'm not going to use some Jerry-rigged hack from Blender or anything like that in a production environment. Time=money.

I was mentioning options, but I do wonder is this "jerry rigged hack" description due to experience, just because it's for Blender and/or because it relies on someone knowing GCode?

If it's the first one, great, I can get behind that as a valid criticism of it. If it's due to any or both of the later ones, that's where I would be cautious.

I don't think it would hurt anyone to know a little bit about the underlying code, rather it's GCode, CSV (I'll get to this format in a bit) or something else. Don't have to be an expert, but it helps to have some type of knowledge about it.

Back with the CSV, I have an inhouse python CLI conversion program that allows me to convert machine files (think 3rd party machine files) to CSV format (because it's python I can take it to any platform in case I had to move again, which I'm fully prepared to do so if that becomes necessary (why I have also tried to make my workflow as cross platform as it can be)). From there I can add other commands, achieve different results. That wouldn't require me (in most cases) from having to do a totally new machine file (which saves me time/money and I don't have to go, I need to do a new file, which a lot of people don't like to hear). Now, I tend not to have the masters of those machine files if someone is bringing them to me (when I have gotten them, they have been for other software packages, not ones that I have/use). Also, because I have that ability to add in that functionality on all machine files, I can actually get away with a less expensive software packages without having to sacrifice functionality/quality. Not all software programs have all of the functionality that the others have. To get everything that my machines can do commercial that would require a $15k-$20k program. I can knock that down to their entry commercial level at $3k or maybe even their high end home/entry level business at $1k. That's a lot of savings. Oh, for the $15k program, upgrading every 2 yrs, x-1, is $1k. The cheaper program is $200 for the upgrade, same 2 yr cycle. Or I can actually use an Inkscape plugin that has the same quality output, use my conversion program and not sacrificing my time. I'm old school in a lot of ways, I'm quicker at it as well, I tend to use the manual, semi-manual tools compared to the fully auto tools as they aren't worth squat (even at the $15-20k level), so that also allows me to get away with other programs. And even not have to worry about my master files and what format they are in as well.

I think that's the thing that a lot of people have gotten away from. They see these tools as just a means to an end and don't really care about much of anything else. To me, that makes you beholding to particular programs. That's not everyone, but I would suspect it is the majority (at least 51%)
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
Trust me I know this. 1994 until 2015 I have been using Adobe. When I switched (not only software but OS), it's a pain. However, my bottom line has actually done better since going away without sacrificing quality or abilities.

If you can do without it that's fine. But your use case does not in any way apply to mine. There are certain features in Adobe's software not found anywhere else. But more important than that none of Adobe's rivals can open Adobe generated AI, EPS and PDF files from corporate clients with 100% accuracy. But we've been over these same points way too many times before. I don't know why you keep trying to debate this $#!+ with me. So you don't like "SaaS". Why continue repeating that point? I've heard it already and so has anyone else who has come within the vicinity of these conversations.

WildWestDesigns said:
Tell that to the people that have 2-3 yr old hardware that fails to meet Windows 11 criteria. Tell that to the set of hardware that was not able to continue to get updates on Win 10.

Using specifics, please describe this so-called 2-3 year old PC that fails to meet Windows 11 criteria. What are the hardware specs and price point on this new-ish machine that can't be upgraded? I would be surprised if this "obsolete" hardware was any better than entry level.

WildWestDesigns said:
The aforementioned product that I talked about is available on all platforms.

How is a plugin for Inkscape any better than the Illustrator plugins from companies like Graphtec and Roland? The Mac platform still doesn't have anything equivalent to full blown "CAS" applications like Flexi, SignLab, etc. It's just vinyl cutter plugins. The fact remains the Mac platform has far fewer options for sign making software than the Windows platform. Heck, even in terms of plugins for mainstream drawing applications like CorelDRAW and Illustrator the Windows platform has OSX beat by miles. There are many more choices available.

WildWestDesigns said:
I was mentioning options, but I do wonder is this "jerry rigged hack" description due to experience, just because it's for Blender and/or because it relies on someone knowing GCode?

How about the factor of TIME? It takes infinitely less time to prep routing table files using a professional application like EnRoute than tinker with G-Code by hand through some cheapskate work-around. What's next, expecting me to hand code Postscript rather than using Illustrator to generate graphics? Maybe I need to make my next phone call using morse code rather than my voice over a handset. JFC! I've never been big on having entire conversations via text over a smart phone. After 2 or 3 messages I'm very done with the typing bull$#!+ and going to go 100% ignore if the conversation doesn't continue via a voice phone call. Anyone who wants to call me an old f@rt for having that attitude can go **** themselves. Time is valuable. Writing code can be a valuable skill under the right circumstances. But doing that for something as simple as a routing table job is a hilariously stupid waste of time.

The fact remains the Mac platform is dead in the water as an option for sign companies to use for routing table purposes. Hacks via Blender do not qualify.
 

netsol

Active Member
wildwest
i would normally agree with you almost completely
HOWEVER
being a relative amateur in the cnc world (my experience with plotters and milling machines is a lot less useful than i had imagined)
i have to admit i see the advantage of "send to enroute" button & going for a cup of coffee while the machine does the work...
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If you can do without it that's fine. But your use case does not in any way apply to mine. There are certain features in Adobe's software not found anywhere else. But more important than that none of Adobe's rivals can open Adobe generated AI, EPS and PDF files from corporate clients with 100% accuracy. But we've been over these same points way too many times before. I don't know why you keep trying to debate this $#!+ with me. So you don't like "SaaS". Why continue repeating that point? I've heard it already and so has anyone else who has come within the vicinity of these conversations.

Absolutely true, just like your situation doesn't apply to everyone else as well.

Using specifics, please describe this so-called 2-3 year old PC that fails to meet Windows 11 criteria. What are the hardware specs and price point on this new-ish machine that can't be upgraded? I would be surprised if this "obsolete" hardware was any better than entry level.

This was mainly for those that were purchased at box stores (which a lot of ones on here do, at least based on what they post). Which has it's own set of issues as well. The thing is, while you continue to move the goal post, there are computers that are purchased new (even though the internals may not be quite as new as one would hope as far as when they were originally released to the public) that still do not qualify for the updates that still get used in some capacity in the production cycle in businesses.


How is a plugin for Inkscape any better than the Illustrator plugins from companies like Graphtec and Roland? The Mac platform still doesn't have anything equivalent to full blown "CAS" applications like Flexi, SignLab, etc. It's just vinyl cutter plugins. The fact remains the Mac platform has far fewer options for sign making software than the Windows platform. Heck, even in terms of plugins for mainstream drawing applications like CorelDRAW and Illustrator the Windows platform has OSX beat by miles. There are many more choices available.

Well, it all depends on what one needs as to if it's better or not. I actually use File->Print versus an extension. Although I have used that one as well, but it has been a long time.

Going back to what extension that I do use for Inkscape and still do and have kept up with it's development. Compared that to a $3k extension, it's able to do one thing that the $3k program doesn't do (which my machines have that optional package, not many do here in the states at least not direct thru OEM add-ons), but the $3k plugin has a better way of handling fonts at this point in time(although it's getting better). Font handling, does not bother me as much as I am able to handle things better using the other tools compared to what is auto generated (think live/power trace with even worse results) and generate better quality. I am not generated that raw file manually, I may tweak it manually, but I'm not writing it totally from scratch.
How about the factor of TIME? It takes infinitely less time to prep routing table files using a professional application like EnRoute than tinker with G-Code by hand through some cheapskate work-around.

I'm talking about tweaking, NOT doing everything by scratch. This would be like taking the direct/group tool and moving a few node points around after you used the primitives and pathfinding tools etc to generate a shape. Or is your aversion to tweaking so much, that even using the direct/group tool out of the question? Any time that one uses the spin boxes to manipulate numerical values of the objects, doing the same thing that I am talking about. It just is wrapped up in a nice GUI. Some programs have that wrapped up in a nice GUI, Inkscape for manipulating SVG markup, is another example. But doing all the same thing. Some programs have that, some do not. Some have it for some things, and not for others.

Have you ever had a time when after you did everything in your CAD program and one little corner or stretch, just didn't do right? For whatever reason, the program hiccup and generate something that was a little hinky (I have in those $15k programs, in all programs, but I wanted to make sure that it was known that it was experienced by the ubber expensive ones as well, at least with the $15k versions, they actually do include a sub-window for manipulating at the granular level, the cheaper versions do not (and a lot of competitor commercial versions do not), even though they have the same engine, same hiccups)? I'm talking about going in and fixing that and only that one little area. That is vastly different compared to doing everything from scratch.

Although, the more I think about it, is it really the act of the tweaks or is it because it's not in a pretty GUI?


I've never been big on having entire conversations via text over a smart phone. After 2 or 3 messages I'm very done with the typing bull$#!+ and going to go 100% ignore if the conversation doesn't continue via a voice phone call.
I agree which is why I don't do this on the phone, I wait until I have a better means of handling the typing. Especially when phones went to all "soft" buttons. It was far better when there was tactile buttons with some resistance there. Although they never were clicky, I must have my clicky as well.


Anyone who wants to call me an old f@rt for having that attitude can go **** themselves. Time is valuable. .
HAHAHAH. If I were to have said that, the hypocrisy would have been too much.

Nah, while I may have disagree with your hot takes on the variety of subjects, for the most part, compared to a lot of other people, you at least stayed with a more discussion and not so much filled with ad hominem.

I have my old fart moments as well and it's attitude related. It's all based on the lack of control that we have with the tools that we use. Where I can, I tend to be more proactive in what I use that enables more freedom for me to do what I want. Not always going to be the case, but I try where I can.


I agree with time equals money, but keep in mind, once a new thing is learned, is that time difference still the same? I firmly believe that people should always be re-evaulating if something could be done better or differently (as long as it makes sense to do so, not always going to be the case and not always going to be the same outcome from one person to the next).

For instance, I switched not only software but platforms (not cold turkey, I wouldn't suggest that) and there was a learning curve and that did cost time. Now, I am actually far more efficient with the new platform compared to the old one (and I still only have yrs experience with it as my main OS on bare metal, versus decades of experience with the other). I have a script/macro to where I can export machine files (5 of them from one source if talking about what I sell as stock files) for a multitude of source files and the pdf production chart for each of them (so 6 files in total per source file), zip it up, name the zip file, and cleanup the individual files as they are already in the zip file. It took me about 30min to come up with the script that worked flawlessly. It doesn't even take a minute to perform that action on a few hundred files (the most that I have done with this particular script) and I still use it. How long do you think that it would have taken to do that one at a time like you would have to do in Ai or DRAW (there is no way to run those programs headless, so the resource consumption is even moreso, which affects time performing those actions as well). I easily recouped my 30 min dev time and that was looking at stackoverflow for just about every segment of that script. And I still use that script, so it's still saving time, beyond that initial use (even using keyboard shortcuts, it's still not as quick as that script on a file by file basis).

Now, have to make sure that what you are working on makes sense to do that, is it going to be just used once or more and if once, is it worth it, in this case how many files is it going to be applied to etc? I, however, would not say that just because it is something new that has to be learned and that takes away from the time=value on the front end, that it isn't worth while over the long haul.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
WildWestDesigns said:
This was mainly for those that were purchased at box stores (which a lot of ones on here do, at least based on what they post). Which has it's own set of issues as well. The thing is, while you continue to move the goal post, there are computers that are purchased new (even though the internals may not be quite as new as one would hope as far as when they were originally released to the public) that still do not qualify for the updates that still get used in some capacity in the production cycle in businesses.

You're not answering the question with any hardware specifics (CPU type, RAM type/amount, Video card model & amount of on board RAM, etc) or price point on what relatively new PCs get disqualified to run Win 11. Being vague makes the problem sound worse than it really is.

I'm not a fan of "box store" PCs. Most feature minimal configurations and are loaded with gobs and gobs of crapware as a form of advertising to help subsidize a cheap price. The machines barely run properly when initially purchased "brand new" loaded with Win10. It shouldn't be surprising to the customer if their 2-3 year old cheap PC doesn't qualify for a Win11 upgrade.

WildWestDesigns said:
Well, it all depends on what one needs as to if it's better or not. I actually use File->Print versus an extension. Although I have used that one as well, but it has been a long time.

Again, the fact remains the Windows platform has far more choice for what EVERY sign maker needs, not just someone like you. EVERYONE's needs are covered. Everything from plugins for CorelDRAW to full blown applications like Flexi (which also has the ability to open ancient CASmate files). The Mac platform has far less choice available.

WildWestDesigns said:
I'm talking about tweaking, NOT doing everything by scratch. This would be like taking the direct/group tool and moving a few node points around after you used the primitives and pathfinding tools etc to generate a shape. Or is your aversion to tweaking so much, that even using the direct/group tool out of the question?

You need to stop jumping to conclusions about what you think my knowledge level is with tinkering G-Code. That's irrelevant. The point is there is no need to waste valuable time goofing around with code in a G-Code file if you have a proper professional software setup. There are times and places where writing code is valuable, like writing a script to automate a repetitive series of tasks. The leading graphics applications (Illustrator, CorelDRAW, etc) supporting scripting. Messing with code doesn't work so well when drilling down into one individual art file if an application like EnRoute can solve any technical problems much faster. I'm paying over $100 per year for Astute Graphics' plugins in part to have the Vector First Aid plugin. That plugin automatically solves all kinds of problems, particularly with crummy customer provided PDFs sent as "artwork." The amount of time it saves makes it worth the money.
 
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