AI Logos - what now?

[Bobby H]

Ive printed a bunch of harley davidson stuff. Trust me, you aren't going to get sued by Harley for a one off decal.

It ain't worth it to screw around with Harley Davidson IP unless the work is for an actual Harley Davidson dealership.

Harley Davidson has a reputation for searching out cases of trademark infringement. Disney is well known for this too. And lately Buc-ee's has become just ridiculous; they're suing any convenience store chain that has an animal mascot in its logo. It's a shame America's court system lets "lawfare" like that take place.

10 or more years ago it might have been easy for companies ranging from sign shops to one-man operations at flea markets to get away with printing and cutting Harley Davidson decals and other stuff. Thanks in part to technology advancements such as image-based web search it's easier for big companies to find people illegally selling products made with their IP. The companies might try to be careful not to post any images of the offending products on the Internet anywhere. But their customers won't be that careful at all.

I've seen a couple examples here in Lawton where a company plagiarized portions of a well-known logo into their own brand and wound up getting busted for it. They figured "this is just Lawton, no one will know or care," so they took a chance. FAFO.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

It ain't worth it to screw around with Harley Davidson IP unless the work is for an actual Harley Davidson dealership.

People have to be careful even with that. The ability to OK usage comes from corporate NOT the dealership. Brand dilution and all that jazz.

 

[Bobby H]

Well, yeah. Obviously when working with corporate artwork, like that of Harley Davidson, you have to follow their brand guidelines. Some sign companies (or just certain people doing the design work) can't seem to manage following those rules. It doesn't always happen, but sometimes the corporate higher ups have to approve the sign layouts before the job can go into production.

 

[Think713]

Given the laws here stateside, there is every reason for them to go after just about anything that could be conceived as against their property. Real or imagined. Now granted, the higher profile that it gets (in this day and age of "viral videos" that doesn't take much) that definitely increases the chance.

Companies like HD, Disney, JD I also think have in house counsel for this type of stuff as well. JD is one around this area is quite popular. What really throws a spanner in this, is that even dealerships, ones that one would think would have permission to go to anyone to get this done, may actually not. Usually there are deals with corporate with vendors and corporate is the one that still owns the branding, not the dealerships. And this goes with any national/international chain of whatever as well. Sometimes there will actually be an alternate logo that one could use for shall we say "unique" vendors that are able to get permission to do the work but not the usual contract vendor.

Now again, everyone has their own "threat" assessment and to each their own.


If I'm not mistaken, the standard is really "how likely is one to be confused". If someone still thinks that it's the official branding, that can be no bueno. I'm unaware of an actual % of change law (although technically a 100% change is a % of change, so there is that).

I'm a non lawyer, so take all that for what it's worth.

While you're not wrong, you think Harley is gonna go after someone who spent $60 on a customer 3rd party decal? Nah dude. I promise you, Harley isnt going to spend the money to sue someone over $60. If you slapped that decal on a custom bike and sold it as a custom harley, then yea... but We're talking apples and oranges. No one that I have ever worked for that has made trademarked brand decals has ever been sued for their work. Not a single one. And ive been doing this work professionally for 10 years.
Im not saying make a habit of it tho. Im just saying harley would never know.

 

[Bobby H]

While you're not wrong, you think Harley is gonna go after someone who spent $60 on a customer 3rd party decal?

They don't sue the customer who bought the illegal merchandise. Occasionally they make an example out of the flea market operator who is making thousands of dollars illegally churning out print and cut Harley Davidson logos (and probably printed Disney characters and all sorts of other crap).

An aside: it would take someone to be an especially pretentious douche to apply Harley Davidson logos onto a motorcycle that wasn't a Harley.

 

[Stacey K]

It's for his custom motorcycle business and he wanted 6 of each left and right Harley sticker and then 6 of his business logo. I think it's a new business so you KNOW those stickers will be plastered all over social media. I guess I should have added that in my post sorry Think713.

This is some of the "ChatGPT Vector-Version" artwork he sent me...ready to print. Of course he argued about the HD and argued that it's vector artwork, ready to print. I see he did not email back since yesterday so he must be trying some other shops, like I suggested LOL It's not worth the time explaining everything that's wrong, I've already wasted more time than it's worth writing this post LOL Notice anything? Because he didn't, but I did.

 

[Stacey K]

Is that last update Waffle deign an AI also. Looks like a 70’s Vegas sign.

That's what I was thinking too!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

While you're not wrong, you think Harley is gonna go after someone who spent $60 on a customer 3rd party decal?

I'm not talking about the customer. Customers aren't the "professional" here. The "professional" is the one that is expected to know the laws that apply to their own business. And where there is one customer that got that one custom decal, it isn't that much of a stretch to conclude that there were others as well.

Occasionally they make an example out of the flea market operator who is making thousands of dollars illegally churning out print and cut Harley Davidson logos (and probably printed Disney characters and all sorts of other crap).

They cracked down on a market that had been around here for a long time. Too many where doing stuff like that. I tend though to not have much sympathy with companies that put their designs that can be reproduced (and designed to be so) in cheaper machines (embroidery machines especially) and cry a river about people stealing their IP. What the people did that had those machines is/was wrong, but don't make it that tempting for others to do that as well.

An aside: it would take someone to be an especially pretentious douche to apply Harley Davidson logos onto a motorcycle that wasn't a Harley.

Oh that wouldn't be the only one. Be surprised when clawing around the bottomless pit's of fandom especially (have to remember what word "fan" comes from).

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Well, yeah. Obviously when working with corporate artwork, like that of Harley Davidson, you have to follow their brand guidelines. Some sign companies (or just certain people doing the design work) can't seem to manage following those rules. It doesn't always happen, but sometimes the corporate higher ups have to approve the sign layouts before the job can go into production.

That's not actually so obvious to some. There is an assumption that because it's a dealership or a more official vendor of the company that they should be good to go. As the bar of entry in this field (and in so many fields) has gotten lower, the actual care into considering brand guidelines for their customers isn't what it used to be. And this is only going to get worse. The more people are in trades like this more to just make a quick buck, the less care that one will see in those trades.

Why some "professionals" also don't care about "AI". They are able to get further with less. Just the natural extension of power/live trace.

 

[Bobby H]

Professionalism in sign design is disappearing and being replaced with enshitification.

The graphic design field can hardly be considered a profession anymore. The field was more of a profession 40-plus years ago when most of the production tools were still analog and not easy to learn/use. Due to the nature of the work flow process back then it was necessary for people to learn a lot of the text book principals of page layout, agency & studio skills, etc. in order to be productive. The designer had to know what steps he was going to use up front to take a project from concept to completion. There was no choice but to work with a sense of discipline. Computers changed that for better and worse. Now, designing with discipline is a choice. Most people are just going to throw it together slap-dash style since that's faster/easier. As a result, "graphic designer" is barely a step above "burger flipper." Honestly, if a high school aged kid asked me about this line of work I'd warn him to consider doing something else for a living. My brother makes over $100K per year working on truck engines and transmissions.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Professionalism in sign design is disappearing and being replaced with enshitification.

In embroidery it started happening with auto "digitization" (or really technically auto conversion, but I digress on technicalities). This was back in the late 90s/early aughts

The graphic design field can hardly be considered a profession anymore. The field was more of a profession 40-plus years ago when most of the production tools were still analog and not easy to learn/use.

That's why I'm glad that I came from that analog era. Going without the high level abstraction doesn't bother me like it would some.

Due to the nature of the work flow process back then it was necessary for people to learn a lot of the text book principals of page layout, agency & studio skills, etc. in order to be productive. The designer had to know what steps he was going to use up front to take a project from concept to completion. There was no choice but to work with a sense of discipline. Computers changed that for better and worse.

Computers and the education system change that. Educators adopted tech too quickly and too early (our minds don't work like that). And we are seeing the "fruits" of that now. People no longer know file trees, are used to auto save, but don't really know where it's saved to. Now we have kids using what passes for "AI" on their projects and teachers say don't use that while using "AI" to detect "AI" usage. People that don't know how to read or at a very very basic level. School system needs to go back to analog and teach those methods especially during the more formative years. HS and what passes for college nowadays, that can be different.

Now, designing with discipline is a choice. Most people are just going to throw it together slap-dash style since that's faster/easier. As a result, "graphic designer" is barely a step above "burger flipper." Honestly, if a high school aged kid asked me about this line of work I'd warn him to consider doing something else for a living. My brother makes over $100K per year working on truck engines and transmissions.

Part of why your brother does that well I'm welling to speculate is the supply pool for that job (does he do diesels as well, that usually gets a premium). For decades, there was a shitting on the trades (of all types), so we have what we have here, too many with shit degrees that can't do shit, but trades are still needed and actually in demand.

The only glimmer of hope that I have is that nothing truly ever dies. The consumer base may shrink and may become more discerning, but nothing really ever truly dies it seems. Evolves, but doesn't really die. Radio didn't kill the stage, movies didn't kill radio, tv didn't kill movies, CGI animation didn't kill 2D animation or stop motion.

 

[Stacey K]

I had a race car a couple weeks ago ask me to design their car. Their one request was "don't make it look like a cartoon" - I knew exactly what they meant even though I don't think they realized it. They didn't want AI designs LOL A few other people have referenced "cartoonish" to me when discussing designs so there's still a fair amount of people out there who don't like the AI look.

 

[Ziklag]

Here's the deal - I don't get to turn down jobs. I'm not the business owner, I'm just an employee. I've explained the issues, no one cares.

Client wants a lit wall sign about 3ft wide - actual method is still TBD but considering the amount of color in this I'm leaning toward a large channel sign with a printed face.

I know we're talking about lipstick on a pig - but the pig is going to prom regardless and I have to do something.

So what is the best bad option here?
- Upscale the raster image with something like Topaz?
- Try to redraw this thing in vector? (if I could guarantee that I would be the one doing this, I wouldn't be so opposed to it given enough time, but this could end up going to any of my design team)
- another option??

I think if you're efficient using Illustrator to draw I would knock that out knowing its pure, 100% glorious vector. At that point client can do as pleased be a small or large display.

 

[simplyshirtsstudio]

I think if you're efficient using Illustrator to draw I would knock that out knowing its pure, 100% glorious vector. At that point client can do as pleased be a small or large display.

On the same ai graphic Subject, I have been given this chatcpt image for dtg print. When I apply my white base layer I get a lot of artifacts and it will not print solid. Any ideas how I would go about properly prepping this image for dtg?. I have coreldraw 2025

 

[Think713]

I'm not talking about the customer. Customers aren't the "professional" here. The "professional" is the one that is expected to know the laws that apply to their own business. And where there is one customer that got that one custom decal, it isn't that much of a stretch to conclude that there were others as well.



They cracked down on a market that had been around here for a long time. Too many where doing stuff like that. I tend though to not have much sympathy with companies that put their designs that can be reproduced (and designed to be so) in cheaper machines (embroidery machines especially) and cry a river about people stealing their IP. What the people did that had those machines is/was wrong, but don't make it that tempting for others to do that as well.


Oh that wouldn't be the only one. Be surprised when clawing around the bottomless pit's of fandom especially (have to remember what word "fan" comes from).

I understand your point, but there is literally a site called "brands of the world" so you can pull their design files that are legit corporate branding. Or at least damn close. And that obviously can shift from year to year depending on the brand. But MY point is here, is that a the worst thing that will happen is a cease and disist letter. And in all my years, that's never happened. Harley Davidson would likely go after someone making fake bike week merchandise at Sturgis or Daytona.
IF you're not churning out tens of hundreds of decals and selling them as retail items, you're not gonna have a problem. A single one off decal is not going to alarm any brand. They literally deal with more retail theft loss in stores than they would ever need to consider to be concerned about with a brand decal that is ultimately going to promote their business.
Maybe a customer CANT GET an outlined all white version for a black tool case or something in their shop. Etc. There are a ton of reasons why someone would want to go to a shop for a custom decal that harley or any other brand simply doesn't offer.

 

[Stacey K]

On the same ai graphic Subject, I have been given this chatcpt image for dtg print. When I apply my white base layer I get a lot of artifacts and it will not print solid. Any ideas how I would go about properly prepping this image for dtg?. I have coreldraw 2025

I just removed the background and added a black "in-line" vs outline. I would just save this as a png and send it out for printing. Not sure what you mean by needing to add a base layer?

 

[simplyshirtsstudio]

It is printing on a black shirt so I am adding a white underbase

 

[Boudica]

I understand your point, but there is literally a site called "brands of the world" so you can pull their design files that are legit corporate branding. Or at least damn close. And that obviously can shift from year to year depending on the brand. But MY point is here, is that a the worst thing that will happen is a cease and disist letter. And in all my years, that's never happened. Harley Davidson would likely go after someone making fake bike week merchandise at Sturgis or Daytona.
IF you're not churning out tens of hundreds of decals and selling them as retail items, you're not gonna have a problem. A single one off decal is not going to alarm any brand. They literally deal with more retail theft loss in stores than they would ever need to consider to be concerned about with a brand decal that is ultimately going to promote their business.
Maybe a customer CANT GET an outlined all white version for a black tool case or something in their shop. Etc. There are a ton of reasons why someone would want to go to a shop for a custom decal that harley or any other brand simply doesn't offer.

Where do you find Harley Davidson on Brands of the World?
See, the companies that hold their brand seriously enough to send out cease and desist notices "or else", don't allow their graphics on sites like Brands of the World - and any other repository like it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I understand your point, but there is literally a site called "brands of the world" so you can pull their design files that are legit corporate branding. Or at least damn close. And that obviously can shift from year to year depending on the brand.

They are able to skirt their existence because they don't do anything for profit and it's more about education about the brands and used as an identifier (well, that's the line anyway). What other people choose to do with that resource is something else.

But MY point is here, is that a the worst thing that will happen is a cease and disist letter.

Cease and Desist is the first step of the process. So no, that may not be the worse step that there is. Bare in mind, some will do what the cease and desist letter states and thus nothing more comes of it. I think that Disney had gone after some daycare places, in the 80s I'm wanting to say, that had drawings on the walls and those were taken down. So yea, it's a thing. And I think some of that was in the 80s like I said. Totally different time as far as tech goes and easily catching things.

And in all my years, that's never happened.

That's what 10 yrs? I go back to '94. What happens is that people get confident and eventually have to pay the piper. Some get lucky and never get caught, doesn't mean that it wasn't illegal, they were just lucky not to get caught.

Harley Davidson would likely go after someone making fake bike week merchandise at Sturgis or Daytona.

Well, I think SunFrog might think differently on that. Now they were printing massive amounts, but it all starts somewhere.

IF you're not churning out tens of hundreds of decals and selling them as retail items, you're not gonna have a problem. A single one off decal is not going to alarm any brand.

Who really stops at one that does this? After all you said this earlier:

Ive printed a bunch of harley davidson stuff. Trust me, you aren't going to get sued by Harley for a one off decal.

Going back to what Bobby said, I think Buc'ees went after a company that did a short run of decals.

Of course, had Bass Pro go after some small Missouri shop over their logo and supposed confusion. They dropped it solely based on public backlash if I remember correctly. There is actually another one with Starbucks that lost. See, regardless if they are right or wrong, in order to maintain their brand protection, they have to actively pursue. You are talking about a company that is worth a billion if not two. Part of that is their IP. And with most of the companies, especially HD that we are talking about, have in house counsel that gets paid regardless if there is a case. And part of what that legal team has to deal with is trademark.

They literally deal with more retail theft loss in stores than they would ever need to consider to be concerned about with a brand decal that is ultimately going to promote their business.

That's actually misconception of that a decal in of itself is going to promote their business. What happens if it wasn't produced using correct colors, or they used an outdated logo that is no longer used by the company? I know that there are some old JD logos that I like versus their new one. But that's not where the money is going into now, it's the new "modern" one. Also, did the company get any proceeds of that sale? Something that wouldn't be a sale if their brand didn't have value. They are owners of said brand that has value, but they didn't make any money off that sale. That's not helping them in anyway. What happens if it was used in promotion of something that is a controversial topic? In this day and age of polarity with controversial topics, oh boy, I can see that going viral and causing some attention, even it was just one shirt, one hat, one sticker.

Maybe a customer CANT GET an outlined all white version for a black tool case or something in their shop. Etc. There are a ton of reasons why someone would want to go to a shop for a custom decal that harley or any other brand simply doesn't offer.

Who owns the property? That's one of the joys of actually owning something, get to decided how it's used, in what context it's used and if the availability of swag goes away. It may suck, not going to lie, but it is what it is.

I'll leave with this as well, we have people that pay (or do something) to get/keep their licenses and they only do what the respective company lets them do. Here one goes, illegally replicates something that they can't do, because of their contract and what the owners allow them to do.

 

[Stacey K]

It is printing on a black shirt so I am adding a white underbase

You only need a white underbase if you are screen printing. This would be a DTF print like you order from Transfer Express, 613, Supacolor. The white is already white, it's not transparent. I'm completely confused because I order DTF all the time, I've never added a white underbase unless like the word American and 250 would be transparent and I wanted them white, then I would. Here is what I think you are asking for but I have zero idea how you would order this. I'm really curious about this, please advise, thanks!