Anyone else noticed very premature laminate failures with turning black etc lately?

[LenXIII]

Hello Everyone,

So I wanted to reach out to the community and see if anyone has noticed their normal products failing much sooner than you are used to? Over the past year myself and several other local sign companies I am friends with have been having jobs turn black or dark brown in the light areas. We are located in Florida and have had some brutal heat the last couple of years but this is getting ridiculous. I have been using the same materials for the most part for 10 years now and am very used to how they hold up and what materials can be used for specific purposes.

In general when someone wants a cheap job that only needs to look good for a short time I use a 5 year general formulations vinyl with a intermediate laminate such as 3m 8508. (don't start with the miss matching brands of vinyl and laminate because in most cases it's BS and has no affect.) This product usually lasts 2-3 years outdoors in florida with NO issues but lately I have been having the prints turn black (which I assume is UV damage to the laminate) in as little as 2-3 months!! My bare prints without a laminate last 10 - 20 times longer than that!! I use eco solvent inks. My buddy uses HP latex inks and has 2-3 jobs around me that failed in 3 months as well using a 5 year arlon vinyl and laminate. Another company I know had a job fail in 5 months using 3m ij-40 with 8510 laminate and so have I.

Attached is a photo of a job that is 7 months old. The vinyl is 3m IJ-40 and the laminate is 3m 8510 mounted to aluminum composite. The text should be white. The sign has some yellow and greens as well that also have black / brown haze in them but not as noticeable as the white areas. My assumption is this is UV damage to the laminate or the glue attached to the laminate. The vinyl itself is not turning black because I tore some of it apart until I could separate the layers and the vinyl is fine. These photos are examples of what I have been seeing A LOT lately across many materials and companies. I have been in business for 15 years and in all the years of my repeat customers I have never a call about failures like this until this year.

 

[unclebun]

We have not seen failures that fast; just the typical 3-5 years.

 

[a77]

I definitely would not expect that with ij40+8510, not even after 4 years. You have to show to 3M and please let us know what they say to that.

 

[LenXIII]

I would like to clarify that I have LOTS of jobs out there in the wild and most jobs are flawless even years after their rated life span. I have 180cv3 jobs out there that are 7 years old and still passable from a 10' viewing distance and no cracks in the florida sun. Most of the these issues I'm referring to as of late are mostly east and west facing static signs, so they are exposed to the harshest environment I can give them but I still expect much more than I have been given. Maybe I'll dig out some photos to really show you guys what I have seen over the past few months.

As for telling 3M - I gave up on that a LONG time ago. We have had very legitimate issues with 3M and getting them to take responsibility is almost impossible. One time I reached out to 3M and asked them to recommend a product that could handle reverse printed back mounted acrylics WITH double-sided tape installed and they recommended 180mc114 in clear with a cast white vinyl (I forget the model) to laminate it with. The job failed in a few weeks because the 3m double-sided foam tape pulled the print away from the acrylic in several areas. 3M said tough luck, we don't warranty anything with tape on it even though they told me what to use and that it would work. 8518 lamintes with matte circles and lines throughout? Check. 8508 rolls with rough texture going down one side of the roll? Check. I also once had a brand new unopened roll of 180cv3 that as soon as it started feeding through the printer would drop dirt and grit everywhere. There were foot prints 20' into the roll still. They wouldn't replace it and I had to complain to my vendor until they agreed to. The list goes on but 3M is terrible company for warranty work unless you following their outrageous logging and record keeping workflow which is just not feasible to most people.

 

[a77]

You gave up on them long ago, yet you just did a sign 7 months ago with their intermediate vinyl combo.
And no vinyl would be able to take the VHB in the way you described. Someone there gave you bad advice I guess.

I wouldn't be trying to necessarily get them to take responsibility but it would be great to hear their comments on the failure of their product.

 

[LenXIII]

When I say I gave up on them long ago I am referring to expecting them to stand behind their product. Do to availability and such their products are still a requirement around here if I want to finish jobs on time. As for the vhb - it wasn't VHB, it was the white foam variant not the more aggressive red VHB. I do realize vinyl would have a hard time with a tape on it and that's the reason I reached out to 3M in the first place. The job was for a client of mine that used to work at a large nationwide sign company that used vhb on their digital prints for a decade with no issues. We switched from the 3m 180 cast vinyl to a really crappy oracal 651 clear and it handled the vhb no problem - the job is now 5 years old and looks flawless. They even put silicone on the back in addition to a few pieces of VHB.

I no long have the pieces of that job I included photos of but I'm sure there will be more and I'll send a piece off to 3M for giggles, and that's about all I expect out of 3m. Their high end vinyls are still very good and I love them but their intermediate products have gone down the shitter lately.

 

[jochwat]

If you suffer from premature delamination, please consult your physician and see if Lamjecta is right for you.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I switched to 8508 after oracal 215 was unavailable. No complaints yet but hopefully they are not on the horizon. 8508 has always been suspect to me, its relatively cheap for a mid line laminate, especially with it being cast. Nothing from 3M is ever cheap.

 

[jfiscus]

It is the laminate failing, been discussed many times:

laminate failure

Im new here and know this has been discussed before but ive about had it with sheet lamination. Over the last 10 yrs ive tried several films and calendared overlaminates. Currently we are printing on General Formulations 222 and laminating with 290 G or Briteline. Im am giving customers an...

www.signs101.com

Need Help - Laminate Turning Brown

Has anyone else had problems with laminate turning brown after 3 to 4yrs on digital prints? Printing with Roland SC540 on Orajet 3651 with 210G laminate... But I have noticed it on other brands of vinyl & laminate too. I'm allowing 24hrs for digital prints to gas out before laminating. I know...

www.signs101.com

 

[jfiscus]

I switched to 8508 after oracal 215 was unavailable. No complaints yet but hopefully they are not on the horizon. 8508 has always been suspect to me, its relatively cheap for a mid line laminate, especially with it being cast. Nothing from 3M is ever cheap.

We have used 8508 for many years for fleet (box truck) graphics without issue. Usually we use 8519, but we have a couple large fleets that wanted a cheaper combo and have had no issues from it.

 

[a77]

Except this one is 8510 and 7 months......

 

[gabagoo]

I have seen this happen but thankfully I have had no real failures that I know of

 

[LenXIII]

So you might want to make sure this is correct. I have always assumed and still believe 8508 to be a CALLENDAR product not a cast one. Grimco has been telling people for years it's cast but it most definitely is not. 8508 6-8 years ago used to be really nice and glossy. It felt soft to the touch while using it (like half as soft as 8518 but still pliable) but now it's hard and brittle which tells me it's made cheaper than it used to be. 8508 feels very cheap to me and I would rather use a mid grade avery or arlon before using it when possible but usually I end up with it due to availability.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

So you might want to make sure this is correct. I have always assumed and still believe 8508 to be a CALLENDAR product not a cast one. Grimco has been telling people for years it's cast but it most definitely is not. 8508 6-8 years ago used to be really nice and glossy. It felt soft to the touch while using it (like half as soft as 8518 but still pliable) but now it's hard and brittle which tells me it's made cheaper than it used to be. 8508 feels very cheap to me and I would rather use a mid grade avery or arlon before using it when possible but usually I end up with it due to availability.

3M says it is a cast material and seriously doubt that they would lie about it. I have always been told that the quality and/or quantity of UV inhibitors has a real big effect on the cost of the product. The manufacturing process of cast vs cal factors in but would bet that they use all around better grade raw materials in making cast products which is what really drives the price. Why would you use top of the line raw goods to manufacture a product using an inferior process? The other way around would make sense because you can increase the life of a product with a lower raw material cost. I'm just making assumptions here but maybe that's what 8508 really is, cast process using calendared quality material which in theory would lessen or eliminate shrinkage.

 

[LenXIII]

3M says it is a cast material and seriously doubt that they would lie about it. I have always been told that the quality and/or quantity of UV inhibitors has a real big effect on the cost of the product. The manufacturing process of cast vs cal factors in but would bet that they use all around better grade raw materials in making cast products which is what really drives the price. Why would you use top of the line raw goods to manufacture a product using an inferior process? The other way around would make sense because you can increase the life of a product with a lower raw material cost. I'm just making assumptions here but maybe that's what 8508 really is, cast process using calendared quality material which in theory would lessen or eliminate shrinkage.

I guess you're right - 3m's website does say cast but it must be a cheaper method besides just the extra stuff as you describe. Go look at a roll of 8508 that has been sitting for a few months, I just did and it has shrunk back from the release liner about 1/8" which is quite a bit for a cast product.

Here are some photos, mostly of 8508 products. Pictures show things such as rough spots throughout, weird impressions etc. One photo that is a closeup of the edge of a laminate roll that looks matte is actually 8508 gloss, it was matte all the way down one side. The pictures with the wavyness in the ink is 3m ij35-20 with bad coatings. The photos of the glossy vinyl on the printer are weird matte finish areas on the surface of the vinyl that were cuasing printing issues. I only scrolled down like 1/10 of the way in my photos, I have hundreds of these. Everyone one of these laminate photos are a different lot and roll of vinyl, they aren't all from the same one.

Edit: Some of my vendors show 8508 as a callendar product such as Nglantz. I'm not really sure what the deal is but I really have a hard time believing it's cast. Todd @ 3M told me a while back it wasn't but he's no longer with the company.

 

[LenXIII]

Part 2

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I had multiple rolls of oracal 215 do the same thing as your top picture with the ornate yellow border, this was before the covid excuse. Never did figure out what caused it

 

[karst41]

I have from time to time had laminate just not stick to the black here and there.

When this b'sh happens on 180cv3 and 8519 There some fkrs that will dissmiss
your complaint quick. They aint paying for that media either.

 

[S2S]

I would like to clarify that I have LOTS of jobs out there in the wild and most jobs are flawless even years after their rated life span. I have 180cv3 jobs out there that are 7 years old and still passable from a 10' viewing distance and no cracks in the florida sun. Most of the these issues I'm referring to as of late are mostly east and west facing static signs, so they are exposed to the harshest environment I can give them but I still expect much more than I have been given. Maybe I'll dig out some photos to really show you guys what I have seen over the past few months.

As for telling 3M - I gave up on that a LONG time ago. We have had very legitimate issues with 3M and getting them to take responsibility is almost impossible. One time I reached out to 3M and asked them to recommend a product that could handle reverse printed back mounted acrylics WITH double-sided tape installed and they recommended 180mc114 in clear with a cast white vinyl (I forget the model) to laminate it with. The job failed in a few weeks because the 3m double-sided foam tape pulled the print away from the acrylic in several areas. 3M said tough luck, we don't warranty anything with tape on it even though they told me what to use and that it would work. 8518 lamintes with matte circles and lines throughout? Check. 8508 rolls with rough texture going down one side of the roll? Check. I also once had a brand new unopened roll of 180cv3 that as soon as it started feeding through the printer would drop dirt and grit everywhere. There were foot prints 20' into the roll still. They wouldn't replace it and I had to complain to my vendor until they agreed to. The list goes on but 3M is terrible company for warranty work unless you following their outrageous logging and record keeping workflow which is just not feasible to most people.

This is the MOST accurate post I can get on board with...exact same experience in its entirety... I cannot even add to it...3M..once thought of as the go to is now...hummh.
They have no personal responses for anyone...mostly thinking the greed example is the best route they are taking...contact me if I am wrong as I use 3M and a tons of it in a variety of different product numbers thruout.
They are and have dropped the ball .....eventually one with to many irons in the fire can't keep up...

 

[Notarealsignguy]

But it's the easiest to remove