Are we green yet?

[chopper]

I do laugh a lot at topics such as this.

Green means nothing more than, Pay more and get less back in return.

As it relates to my aspect of the industry it's more so laughable when LED manufacturers claim LEDs are "Green", or they don't contain "mercury". Well most LEDs are made in China, China has coal plants, that's mercury put into in the atmosphere.

Next you have the lamp recycle freaks, then the anti mercury crowd. Anyone remember that Volcano that exploded in Iceland, you know, the one that had a name that couldn't be pronounced? Where most of Europe couldn't travel by air? That one explosion just but more mercury vapor into the atmosphere than if every man, women, and child broke all their CFL lamps on the ground, this generation, the last and future generations to come.

This doesn't even count the normal volcanism that happen on a normal basis which puts merc vapor ito the atmosphere or oceans. That one explosion alone just put man back in the negative scale, so much for those efforts and legislation that translated to you and I paying more.

And little "Man" thinks he can do something about that?

"Green" and the environmentalists who run rabid just means ECO-Tyranny, you and I pay more, the government sticks it's hands and dictates the free market, the government creates "demand" in the free market and we get screwed. Can't wait for the vote for Cap and tax, that's a good one GE!

But hey, if it makes you "Feel" better to think your helping/saving the plante, by all means live in your delusion. I can't believe their is a dedicated forum for green, fantasy land folks.



Where is never never land?

between west coast here and bob.
pretty-much sums it up. I did some decals for a construction company that "went green" we added green leafs to there logo that was the extent of their idea of going green, they actually laughed said that they did not change any of their business practices to go green just added the leafs and the public ate it up,
this green / global warming is nothing more than a effort by the environmentalists to control you
it is all crap...
//chopper
there I went green!

 

[1leonchen]

can some one please define what is green. please and thanks. because going green is a hoax?

 

[anotherdog]

It is shaming to realise how false 99.9% of "green" is. How degraded the concept of caring for the environment has become and how it is just another way to screw more dollars out of sales to a gullable and yet willfully blind public or a grubbing way to garner more votes to stay in power.

We all see it for a sham yet we stay silent about the emperors clothes. To actually do something about it. to create real green products and force their use would mean the end of our comfort. The end of 60 inch plasma and drive to the mall weekends.

I for one am going to continue to pull the blanket up over my head and pretend that the next generation will be able to come up with a fix. As long as everyone else keeps pretending the same thing I should be long gone before it all falls apart mad max style.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

can some one please define what is green. please and thanks. because going green is a hoax?

Put simply, it's marketing a product over another (It's competition) that normally couldn't stand on it's own or in comparison, or by merit. So a backdoor way is found, usually playing on environmentalists fears or feelings and sold to the public based on their guilt or getting the general public to feel guilty on the products/lifestyle they have been using.

That's "Green", a killer of our individual liberties.

"Green" is the new "Red".









Red as in communism.

 

[andy]

I still bury oil in my backyard after doing oil changes, after all, it came out of the ground originally didn't it?? Even so, that is an improvement over pouring it down the storm drain like we used to do back when I was a kid.

Oh my god, say that again slowly? If your "logic" made any sense whatsoever..... the world is full of stories about the environmental damage caused by extracting crude oil. What on earth makes you "think" that toxic crude oil is somehow less toxic after it's been refined and used? Uranium comes out of the ground too... should we just dump the contents of every nuclear power station in a hole in your garden too?

FYI used engine oil is a known to be a cancer causing compound. FYI+ engine oil isn't "natural oil"... it's been tinkered with and it's full of man made chemicals which aren't found in nature.

As counterpoint to your overweening concern over things out of your control, I pour my waste ink out on the ground and recycle absolutely nothing. My efforts have exactly the same effect as yours, none whatsoever.

So you're a sign maker as well as fully qualified Chemist and Biologist then? After dumping your liquid cr@p all over your garden you've followed up with an in depth scientific study which examines the impact of your efforts on the flora & fauna in your garden. You've taken soil samples and tested the local water supply to discover what impacts your dirty work have had on the environment. You know which chemical compounds are harmful and you understand how they bind and alter the nature of your environment.

After your extensive research you've passed your results onto the wider scientific community where your efforts are peer reviewed and it's confirmed that slopping toxic $hit all over your garden has no negative impacts on your environment... in direct contradiction of common sense and logic.

Either that or you've slopped your toxic slop in a hole and then covered it with an old plant pot and "seen" no visual deterioration in the environment you can "see" visually.

Next you have the lamp recycle freaks, then the anti mercury crowd. Anyone remember that Volcano that exploded in Iceland, you know, the one that had a name that couldn't be pronounced? Where most of Europe couldn't travel by air? That one explosion just but more mercury vapor into the atmosphere than if every man, women, and child broke all their CFL lamps on the ground, this generation, the last and future generations to come

Volcanic activity is a natural event which does release large volumes of chemicals... however, it has been proven that volcanic events can be beneficial to the planet and it's environment. The Icelandic event did not result in permanent or wide spread heath restrictions... the primary heath concern was the fine ash dust not the chemicals emitted.

Volcanoes emit lots of chemicals but they all share one characteristic... they are all chemicals which are natural to earth... they are chemicals which are built into the very fabric of the planet.

You cannot translate volcanic activity into the human sphere... we as humans have the capacity to invent chemical bindings which are unknown to nature. We understand how volcanoes work and understand the impact of combining the various natural chemicals which come out of them with those in the wider environment. Because man made chemicals are unnatural we have no way of knowing how each individual man made chemical will react when combined with other man made compounds or indeed with those which feature widely in nature.

Once man started creating his own chemicals this opened up a huge range of unknown consequences... how do you test that every chemical made by man will not cause a toxic result when combined with every chemical made by nature.

Mercury is extremely harmful to humans... it makes absolute sense to seek to find other safer alternatives. This has happened before with asbestos.... although asbestos is an excellent thermal insulator it is also an aggressive cancer causing substance... by banning asbestos the regulators forced scientists and industry to come up with safer alternatives.

I suggest you all take a look at the iconic Earth photograph taken from orbit... when viewed from the extra terrestrial our planet can be seen as a beautiful and delicate diamond amongst a solar system of rocks.

This planet is home, if we screw this planet there is no life boat, no plan B.

 

[Locals Find!]

I advertise a coroplast sign as a "Green Product" I ask my customers to bring me back there coroplast sign for recycling when they are finished. I even give a coupon to customers that bring them back to encourage the practice. 5% off goes along way to earn repeat business and new customers. Goes for any coroplast sign brought back to me no matter where they bought it originally.

We simply cover it over in either digital printed vinyl or cover it in plain white and then apply new plotted vinyl to it.

Of course it costs more to buy one of our recycled signs however, those really interested in being green will pay and do.

We have always recycled everything we could prior to there being a green movement in every shop I have worked in. Mostly to save money and cut costs way before we ever thought about recycling we called it just being frugal.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Think the term "green" is the wrong term for it. I think it should be "efficient". Being greener is all about efficiency. More use with less waste. If you make a mistake with something, but are able to still use it for something else and not throwing it out, that's being greener then the person that just throws out the mistake.

Like it or not, eventually sources of input will change, they will have to as things are finite in nature. Once the cost of one input gets so high, it makes those once more expensive options more viable. Just think of what happened with whale oil v. kerosene.

Eventually we will have to be sustainable somehow, there is just no two ways about it. Those that can afford the transition will more then likely survive, those that can't will be culled. Nature of business. Not fun, not a great thing to have to live though, but it is the nature of business. One thing is for sure, it'll help weed out those extra sign shops until the cost of the newer "greener" equipment comes done due to economies of scale.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

Now you are just trying to justify natures events as "natural" and man's as "unatural" How are our actions "unatural", are we not apart of "nature"? Sure some creatures build damns and nests, we build rockets that go into space.

Mercury is no a danger to man, and a matter of fact mercury found in lamps is elemental and in it's natural state. You can play with it in your hand without health hazards. Problems arise when it finds itself seeping through the ground, morphing to another state to an underground water supply or stream. At this point it can become dangerous. Now because of this, YIKES double YIKES, sky is falling. So now we must get this out of the hands of man in case " a neon bender might our his merc down his sink and into our streams" - Karen Knabel

Back to volcanoes, exploding volcanoes are not good for us, maybe for the earth but not for you and I, nor birds. Nature does not revolve around man or animal.

I suppose the recent gulf spill we had here is another "bad" mans fault too? Was this a catastrophic man made disaster that hurt nature and hurt it? I doubt it, nature has a way of cleaning itself up, look at the bacteria that ate it up. Besides, a small quake can easily expose an underwater well to flood the waters much worse tan what happened recently.

What comes from the earth no matter how mixed returns to the earth. What you call man making and mixing elements together over a bunsen burner is no different than a warm front mixing with a cold front with the same air as a volcano explosion to bring to trap and brig those elements back down on the earth to poison villager and plant life below for hundreds of years. There is Natures chemistry set.

You may have a better point should a meteor fall on earth bringing unknown elements from another solar system never before seen here that can change the scope of life here, but then again, wouldn't that just be nature working?


I'd be more terrified of super quakes, sudden polar shifting/techtonic plate shifting, large meteors impacting earth than someone smashing a CFL lamp in my presence or other Frankenstien theories on mans arrogance to think we are dictating Mother Nature.

Sure man can pollute, but we have no power to destroy the earth, and it needs no saving from us.

I'm sure more "emotional" responses will follow based on "feeling"

One of the biggest jokes is plastic bottles and how it hurts "our" environment. Good god!


Last I heard the US had more trees now than when the colonials landed. Hmmmm. Oh and, we're living longer. Curse advancements we should be taxed for it!

I still bury oil in my backyard after doing oil changes, after all, it came out of the ground originally didn't it?? Even so, that is an improvement over pouring it down the storm drain like we used to do back when I was a kid.

Oh my god, say that again slowly? If your "logic" made any sense whatsoever..... the world is full of stories about the environmental damage caused by extracting crude oil. What on earth makes you "think" that toxic crude oil is somehow less toxic after it's been refined and used? Uranium comes out of the ground too... should we just dump the contents of every nuclear power station in a hole in your garden too?

FYI used engine oil is a known to be a cancer causing compound. FYI+ engine oil isn't "natural oil"... it's been tinkered with and it's full of man made chemicals which aren't found in nature.

As counterpoint to your overweening concern over things out of your control, I pour my waste ink out on the ground and recycle absolutely nothing. My efforts have exactly the same effect as yours, none whatsoever.

So you're a sign maker as well as fully qualified Chemist and Biologist then? After dumping your liquid cr@p all over your garden you've followed up with an in depth scientific study which examines the impact of your efforts on the flora & fauna in your garden. You've taken soil samples and tested the local water supply to discover what impacts your dirty work have had on the environment. You know which chemical compounds are harmful and you understand how they bind and alter the nature of your environment.

After your extensive research you've passed your results onto the wider scientific community where your efforts are peer reviewed and it's confirmed that slopping toxic $hit all over your garden has no negative impacts on your environment... in direct contradiction of common sense and logic.

Either that or you've slopped your toxic slop in a hole and then covered it with an old plant pot and "seen" no visual deterioration in the environment you can "see" visually.

Next you have the lamp recycle freaks, then the anti mercury crowd. Anyone remember that Volcano that exploded in Iceland, you know, the one that had a name that couldn't be pronounced? Where most of Europe couldn't travel by air? That one explosion just but more mercury vapor into the atmosphere than if every man, women, and child broke all their CFL lamps on the ground, this generation, the last and future generations to come

Volcanic activity is a natural event which does release large volumes of chemicals... however, it has been proven that volcanic events can be beneficial to the planet and it's environment. The Icelandic event did not result in permanent or wide spread heath restrictions... the primary heath concern was the fine ash dust not the chemicals emitted.

Volcanoes emit lots of chemicals but they all share one characteristic... they are all chemicals which are natural to earth... they are chemicals which are built into the very fabric of the planet.

You cannot translate volcanic activity into the human sphere... we as humans have the capacity to invent chemical bindings which are unknown to nature. We understand how volcanoes work and understand the impact of combining the various natural chemicals which come out of them with those in the wider environment. Because man made chemicals are unnatural we have no way of knowing how each individual man made chemical will react when combined with other man made compounds or indeed with those which feature widely in nature.

Once man started creating his own chemicals this opened up a huge range of unknown consequences... how do you test that every chemical made by man will not cause a toxic result when combined with every chemical made by nature.

Mercury is extremely harmful to humans... it makes absolute sense to seek to find other safer alternatives. This has happened before with asbestos.... although asbestos is an excellent thermal insulator it is also an aggressive cancer causing substance... by banning asbestos the regulators forced scientists and industry to come up with safer alternatives.

I suggest you all take a look at the iconic Earth photograph taken from orbit... when viewed from the extra terrestrial our planet can be seen as a beautiful and delicate diamond amongst a solar system of rocks.

This planet is home, if we screw this planet there is no life boat, no plan B.

 

[Locals Find!]

I am most worried about the CFL lamps ending up in my landfills in Florida and all that mercury seeping directly into our already limited aquifers.

I would much rather have a disposal method for these rather than having people simply toss them into the regular garbage. That much mercury seeping into drinking water can't be good for anyone.

As for plastic bottles they are great as long as they are recycled. Then at least they can be made into something useful. Just tossing them in a landfill is stupid. Who benefits from them then?

 

[anotherdog]

I am most worried about the CFL lamps ending up in my landfills in Florida and all that mercury seeping directly into our already limited aquifers.

Stick em in an envelope and mail them to another state with no return address. You have then saved Forida aquifers.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

I am most worried about the CFL lamps ending up in my landfills in Florida and all that mercury seeping directly into our already limited aquifers.

I would much rather have a disposal method for these rather than having people simply toss them into the regular garbage. That much mercury seeping into drinking water can't be good for anyone.

As for plastic bottles they are great as long as they are recycled. Then at least they can be made into something useful. Just tossing them in a landfill is stupid. Who benefits from them then?

Sounds like you better talk to planning if you have landfills near anything used for drinking water, merc is the only chemical you should be worried about.

Pretty soon you might be having some unruly people as neighbors



Plastic bottles do what in the landfill and what to us? They just might outlast the pyramids

 

[Locals Find!]

Stick em in an envelope and mail them to another state with no return address. You have then saved Forida aquifers.

Whats your address. I can arrange a program to send them to your shop and you can fill your landfills with it.

 

[Locals Find!]

Sounds like you better talk to planning if you have landfills near anything used for drinking water, merc is the only chemical you should be worried about.

Pretty soon you might be having some unruly people as neighbors



Plastic bottles do what in the landfill and what to us? They just might outlast the pyramids

This is Florida everything is near drinking water. We are surrounded by water and have thousands of miles of flat land that sheet flows out to the gulf and the ocean and replenishes our aquifers every time it rains. Unlike up north where you have snow melt to refill yours we have only the rain and run off.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

What comes from the earth no matter how mixed returns to the earth. What you call man making and mixing elements together over a bunsen burner is no different than a warm front mixing with a cold front with the same air as a volcano explosion to bring to trap and brig those elements back down on the earth to poison villager and plant life below for hundreds of years. There is Natures chemistry set.

Your correct in absolute terms, but it's the rate in which it returns to the earth that is the biggest issue. We have created things that are not found within nature and take a very specific set of events to be created that are not found within 98% of the time in nature. Those do not readily go back into nature and take a long time to do so.

You are correct in that some things are created in nature, but there are some things that are done by man that are not recreated on the same molecular level that is found in nature. That's were you get into a sticky situation.

I've had enough soil science, animal science and general science background to be confident in this(two of my bachelor degrees are in science(agriculture, something that we all should be concerned about with sustainability), however my masters is in economics).

You also have to remember there is only so much waste that nature can handle at any one time. Think of it as a garbage can. You can only fill it up so much before it needs to be replaced(or break down in nature's case). Nature can take care of things eventually, but it has to be given the chance to take care of things. There is a certain "rate of flow" that has to be observed. For instances, TN soils absorb an inch of rain an hour, any more then that within an hour and you have runoff, same thing in terms of waste. You fill up things more then x amount in y time, you have over flow. You have to wait until nature can take care of the original load first and then take care of the overage. Man, in most cases, doesn't allow that to happen.

 

[chopper]

Your correct in absolute terms, but it's the rate in which it returns to the earth that is the biggest issue. We have created things that are not found within nature and take a very specific set of events to be created that are not found within 98% of the time in nature. Those do not readily go back into nature and take a long time to do so.

You are correct in that some things are created in nature, but there are some things that are done by man that are not recreated on the same molecular level that is found in nature. That's were you get into a sticky situation.

I've had enough soil science, animal science and general science background to be confident in this(two of my bachelor degrees are in science(agriculture, something that we all should be concerned about with sustainability), however my masters is in economics).

You also have to remember there is only so much waste that nature can handle at any one time. Think of it as a garbage can. You can only fill it up so much before it needs to be replaced(or break down in nature's case). Nature can take care of things eventually, but it has to be given the chance to take care of things. There is a certain "rate of flow" that has to be observed. For instances, TN soils absorb an inch of rain an hour, any more then that within an hour and you have runoff, same thing in terms of waste. You fill up things more then x amount in y time, you have over flow. You have to wait until nature can take care of the original load first and then take care of the overage. Man, in most cases, doesn't allow that to happen.

Wild West,
I do agree with what you stated to some degree, but I do question who is doing the teaching?
as we know most of the college level professors and the like are very left leaning to say the least, there fore it is hard not to believe that what they teach also leans to the left, and with that said how do you know what you have been taught is correct? without agenda? most professors that I have come in contact with became one to promote an agenda to save the planet, and so on....I believe that they would change and omit data to fit their agenda, to save the planet,(or so they may believe for the good of man or the earth) just look at Al Gore's global warming crap that has been debunked proven to have been concluded with false data, by scientist with an agenda...this was not meant a a personal attack so please do not take it that way, just an observation ...
//chopper

 

[Si Allen]

Arrrrggggh! We're all gonna die!

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Wild West,
I do agree with what you stated to some degree, but I do question who is doing the teaching?

That actually depends on what department you are in. I wouldn't overgeneralize that.

For instance, agriculture department that most of my lectures were in was a very conservative environment(no pun intended) compared to the liberal arts(no duh right?).

Now in the economics department it was dependant on the teacher. There were conservatives and liberals in that department. I remember taking an Environmental Economics class and there were examples of when it would be better to "pollute", take the hit on the fine, and proceed with business as usual and other times it wasn't as good. Same with Economics in the Legal System as well. Sometimes it's better to say "hell with the contract" and break it then it would be to honor the contract. It just depends on the economics of situation.

So it really is a yes and no answer about the liberal ideology of a university. However, my experience isn't also just academics, I also own and still oversee my horse horse operation as well. So sustainability is very much something that I have to worry about otherwise my pastures would be drylots eventually.

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

The rate of breakdown will always be a debate I suppose. Have you ever seen how fast the salt ocean breaks metals and plastics? It's amazing what you see at the beach.

It was said during the big gulf spill that the oil eating bacteria would take a very long time to eat the oil and that it wouldn't be much of a clean up factor. Then the facts came out later that they were amazed at how fast the bacteria worked and how huge the farms were, in turn the fish eat the bacteria.

I don't want to travel way off base here and I think I have. So back to the original thought

I would NEVER manipulate, mis-characterize, play on clients fears/guilt or play the green game, to market and sell my goods or services just to sign a contract. A lot of sign companies do this, especially in my aspect of the electric sign trade when it comes to LED illuminated signs (You don't have to). It might be the only way they can sell their signs to make up for their limitations, I don't have to. I actually love to educate the end user about all the pros and cons of everything that can be used, I like to show them real numbers/ facts/figures/ ROI.

I sell quality produced products that last, coupled with professional installation which is very important to longevity of electric signs. I don't have to throw out/pitch marketing statements or claims about lighting and short term ROI. I also don't have to register myself as minority or women owned business just to get myself ahead in line or priority of another to get contracts. I refuse. I either get it by merit, or not at all.

Every lighting product has its place and use, not one is better overall to others.

Now, about inks!


@Adtechia- I meant to say "merc is NOT the only chemical you should be worried about"

 

[redbarn]

I use eco-solvent inks, they are great, hardly any smell, low voc's. Let's be honest, our industry is anything but "green". Plastics are a derivitive of petroleum products (which we all know make flowers grow) . I've tried to market the green angle, but have a very difficult time keeping a straight face. We recycle, use most of our scraps but the nature of this industry is not indicative of being friendly to mother earth. "Green" is a marketing term that has a vast gap between what ppl think it means and what it actually means. Green means slightly less harmful to the environment (than the industry standard), NOT good for the environment. As if driving a smart car is good for the environment. Thats about as oxymoronic as the term military intelligence or the department of justice. They are just words that very little to do with reality.

 

[signswi]

Wild West,
I do agree with what you stated to some degree, but I do question who is doing the teaching?
as we know most of the college level professors and the like are very left leaning to say the least, there fore it is hard not to believe that what they teach also leans to the left, and with that said how do you know what you have been taught is correct? without agenda? most professors that I have come in contact with became one to promote an agenda to save the planet, and so on....I believe that they would change and omit data to fit their agenda, to save the planet,(or so they may believe for the good of man or the earth) just look at Al Gore's global warming crap that has been debunked proven to have been concluded with false data, by scientist with an agenda...this was not meant a a personal attack so please do not take it that way, just an observation ...
//chopper

As the saying goes, "reality has a liberal bias". I'd like to see citations on which parts of "al gore's global warming crap" have been debunked. While you try to find a legit source, here's a study a climate skeptic scientist hired by the Koch Brothers undertook on global warming: article link (article written by scientist, study cited in article). His conclusion? Global warming is very real, and very much caused by human actions. A complete 180 from his position going into the study, the data is overwhelming.