Building Sign question

[Silver Star DC]

License or not. I pride myself on my work. I always want to make sure the job is done correctly and professionally.
That is why I'm on here asking questions to other professionals who might have installed a sign on a surface like this.

 

[TimToad]

I'm not trying to pass myself as something I'm not, and definitely not trying to be unethical or do anything illegal. When I say I have done electrical, I truely mean that. I have wired houses, breaker boxes, and cabinets. I'm not new to the electrical side. I was looking for advice on the letter types for the building and general rules for this type surface. I have not installed can letters or cut letters individually. This was the main direction I was trying to drive my question. But that's ok, I appreciate all this feedback.

We'll have to agree to disagree. If you are attempting to do projects outside of your licensing and insurance limits, you are misrepresenting yourself to the client and skirting the regulations written to protect the public from unlicensed contractors doing work they aren't qualified to do. When you sub out the electrical portion of the project to a licensed, insured and bonded professional you are insuring that the job is done right, giving both you and the client peace of mind. It also sets in place a chain of liability on the event of an accident or something going wrong.

Say you miss something, or miss a crucial wire nut and a fire breaks out or worse someone is injured or killed. Do you really want to jeopardize your business assets, perhaps also your personal assets, etc... by cutting corners on such a critical issue?

You also help further the decline of legitimate electric sign contractors who simply can't compete against shops who will gladly "build" their businesses doing jobs outside of their qualifications, accreditation and insurance. Would you feel comfortable walking into a 50 year old electric sign company's office and flipping the owner the bird? That's exactly what you would be doing by undermining the integrity of a system built on protecting the public and his commitment to doing the right way all those years.

Sorry, for not simply parroting an easy answer to only your material related question, but after 35+ years in this craft, I tire rather quickly of seeing the same pattern repeated decade after decade.

 

[Silver Star DC]

We'll have to agree to disagree. If you are attempting to do projects outside of your licensing and insurance limits, you are misrepresenting yourself to the client and skirting the regulations written to protect the public from unlicensed contractors doing work they aren't qualified to do. When you sub out the electrical portion of the project to a licensed, insured and bonded professional you are insuring that the job is done right, giving both you and the client peace of mind. It also sets in place a chain of liability on the event of an accident or something going wrong.

Say you miss something, or miss a crucial wire nut and a fire breaks out or worse someone is injured or killed. Do you really want to jeopardize your business assets, perhaps also your personal assets, etc... by cutting corners on such a critical issue?

You also help further the decline of legitimate electric sign contractors who simply can't compete against shops who will gladly "build" their businesses doing jobs outside of their qualifications, accreditation and insurance. Would you feel comfortable walking into a 50 year old electric sign company's office and flipping the owner the bird? That's exactly what you would be doing by undermining the integrity of a system built on protecting the public and his commitment to doing the right way all those years.

Sorry, for not simply parroting an easy answer to only your material related question, but after 35+ years in this craft, I tire rather quickly of seeing the same pattern repeated decade after decade.

For starters, thank you for your advice. With your experience, I would really like to sit down with you sometime to learn more about the business.

Secondly, I don't cut corners. As I said...I take pride in what I do. I don't undermine or undercut larger shops in my area, that's bad for everyone.
I don't have an electrical license for installing electrical cabinets, because it is not required in TN. If I thought that I was getting over my head with
the electrical, I have enough common sense to contact and actual licensed Electrician (hence taking pride in my work). I'm a small shop trying to
expand and grow, but I'm not some hack job that is going to slap something on the side of a building just to get paid. You may have small shops
where you are doing that you, but I am NOT one of those shops.

But instead of blasting a little guy who is trying to gain more experience, explain to them the right way of doing things. Some may listen and some may not.
But that seems to be the hardest thing to get accomplished when you are growing your business. Is pure 100% guidance and advice. Not speculation of how
you are going to go out and undermine what everyone else has spent years building up. Everyone started at the bottom at some point. And to grow, you ask
questions. To gain more experience, you do more jobs (asking questions).
And hopefully, eventually with the right support and asking the right question...I can say that I have 35 years in this craft!

 

[Andy D]

We'll have to agree to disagree. If you are attempting to do projects outside of your licensing and insurance limits, you are misrepresenting yourself to the client and skirting the regulations written to protect the public from unlicensed contractors doing work they aren't qualified to do. When you sub out the electrical portion of the project to a licensed, insured and bonded professional you are insuring that the job is done right, giving both you and the client peace of mind. It also sets in place a chain of liability on the event of an accident or something going wrong.

Say you miss something, or miss a crucial wire nut and a fire breaks out or worse someone is injured or killed. Do you really want to jeopardize your business assets, perhaps also your personal assets, etc... by cutting corners on such a critical issue?

You also help further the decline of legitimate electric sign contractors who simply can't compete against shops who will gladly "build" their businesses doing jobs outside of their qualifications, accreditation and insurance. Would you feel comfortable walking into a 50 year old electric sign company's office and flipping the owner the bird? That's exactly what you would be doing by undermining the integrity of a system built on protecting the public and his commitment to doing the right way all those years.

Sorry, for not simply parroting an easy answer to only your material related question, but after 35+ years in this craft, I tire rather quickly of seeing the same pattern repeated decade after decade.

Tim, I agree with your sentiments, but not with the specifics of your post. I have know and worked with literally hundreds of installers that do these type of installs
in TN and maybe two of them were certified electricians. If Silver Star has the level of experience as he says, then there is no reason he should consider subbing out the install.
Sign wiring, comparably speaking, is simple. I expect the motive of other states that require signs be wired up by a certified electrician has more to do with protecting the electrician unions
than any thing else. If Silver star provides a mechanical that is approved by codes and his work is inspected afterwards, I don't see the problem.

 

[TimToad]

For starters, thank you for your advice. With your experience, I would really like to sit down with you sometime to learn more about the business.

Secondly, I don't cut corners. As I said...I take pride in what I do. I don't undermine or undercut larger shops in my area, that's bad for everyone.
I don't have an electrical license for installing electrical cabinets, because it is not required in TN. If I thought that I was getting over my head with
the electrical, I have enough common sense to contact and actual licensed Electrician (hence taking pride in my work). I'm a small shop trying to
expand and grow, but I'm not some hack job that is going to slap something on the side of a building just to get paid. You may have small shops
where you are doing that you, but I am NOT one of those shops.

But instead of blasting a little guy who is trying to gain more experience, explain to them the right way of doing things. Some may listen and some may not.
But that seems to be the hardest thing to get accomplished when you are growing your business. Is pure 100% guidance and advice. Not speculation of how
you are going to go out and undermine what everyone else has spent years building up. Everyone started at the bottom at some point. And to grow, you ask
questions. To gain more experience, you do more jobs (asking questions).
And hopefully, eventually with the right support and asking the right question...I can say that I have 35 years in this craft!

I feel that my comments have been purposely insightful based on long experience and my observations over time, are advice/support driven and have been respectfully presented. Anyone in a similar position as yours could read this thread and gain insight about the need to do things properly and ethically as recommended by both myself and many others who have responded.

I'd check your state licensing requirements, because I can't find that exception after a quick check.

Nobody is "blasting" anyone or trying to kneecap and hinder your desire to grow and build your business. You may not think you aren't undermining long established electrical sign companies in your area, but in the end and if you are really honest about it, your cost of doing business and investment without all the same licensing, insurance, equipment, etc. is drastically lower than those type of shops. It doesn't take a CPA to figure out that your profit margin on the exact same job if quoted at the same price is dramatically higher for you.

I'm not speculating about anything. I know for a fact that even with your good intentions, by skirting the regulations, insurance, licensing and permitting requirements, you operate at an unfair and unethical advantage over those doing it the right and proper way.

 

[TimToad]

Tim, I agree with your sentiments, but not with the specifics of your post. I have know and worked with literally hundreds of installers that do these type of installs
in TN and maybe two of them were certified electricians. If Silver Star has the level of experience as he says, then there is no reason he should consider subbing out the install.
Sign wiring, comparably speaking, is simple. I expect the motive of other states that require signs be wired up by a certified electrician has more to do with protecting the electrician unions
than any thing else. If Silver star provides a mechanical that is approved by codes and his work is inspected afterwards, I don't see the problem.

Yup, with under 8% of the total workforce in the U.S. belonging to unions, lets turn this into a typical red state union blaming exercise. We can all see how that 40 year trend has helped average working class folks.

Tell that to the hundreds of victims per year of faulty sign wiring fires that sign wiring is "simple" and faultproof.

These codes, regulations and workplace/consumer protections are in place for one simple reason, to protect the public and workers from negligent and/or untrained and unlicensed operators cutting corners.

And how does Silver Star DC get an approved mechanical back from his local planning/building department if he isn't licensed to even submit one?

I think we're reaching the inevitable "kicking a dead horse" on this topic.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Yes...my overhead is lower than the larger shops in my area. Yes...I would try to quote this job as close as I possibly could to the larger shops in my area.
No...That is that undermining them? Because everyone has a fair shot at placing the bid for the job. Yes...My profit margin would be higher, because I don't
owe for all the equipment the larger shops have. But I hope to get there one day. Am I following all codes, laws, ethics, morals, legalities?...Yes.
In the state of TN I do have to have UL licensed materials. I do have to have a permit for the sign and the electrical. I do have to have the sign and electrical
inspected upon completion of the job. I do carry liability insurance. So the only difference between me and the larger shops, is that they have more experience.

 

[Andy D]

Yup, with under 8% of the total workforce in the U.S. belonging to unions, lets turn this into a typical red state union blaming exercise. We can all see how that 40 year trend has helped average working class folks.

Tell that to the hundreds of victims per year of faulty sign wiring fires that sign wiring is "simple" and faultproof.

These codes, regulations and workplace/consumer protections are in place for one simple reason, to protect the public and workers from negligent and/or untrained and unlicensed operators cutting corners.

And how does Silver Star DC get an approved mechanical back from his local planning/building department if he isn't licensed to even submit one?

I think we're reaching the inevitable "kicking a dead horse" on this topic.

All of the political stuff aside & with all due respect Tim.........your comparing apples to oranges, meaning, just because all that is required
in your state doesn't mean it is here... 99% of the electrical sign installs are done by non-certified electricians in TN and probably most southern states.
If silver Star Star tried to have all of his installations done by certified electricians, he would be out of business within a short time.

"how does Silver Star DC get an approved mechanical back from his local planning/building department if he isn't licensed to even submit one?"

I'm not even sure what this means, what license are required to have in California to submit a mechanical to codes? (I'm not trying to be a smast @ss,honest question)

 

[Andy D]

Yup, with under 8% of the total workforce in the U.S. belonging to unions, lets turn this into a typical red state union blaming exercise. We can all see how that 40 year trend has helped average working class folks.
.

And for the record, I wasn't bashing Unions. I'm neither pro or anti unions,
I was only observing Unions do have a lot of political influence north and west
and this might be one of their effects.

 

[visual800]

only on this forum can you post about an install and get school about licensing.

if this were my job i would crawl up inside and investigate. if all is good i would then order letters.
your letters will come with an install pattern, tape it up there and start drilling. each letter should have long pigtail shove that in the hole and silicone the letters. they should hold fine on their own till silicone sets up

Since you are familiar with wiring go behind wall and hook it up!

 

[player]

I feel that my comments have been purposely insightful based on long experience and my observations over time, are advice/support driven and have been respectfully presented. Anyone in a similar position as yours could read this thread and gain insight about the need to do things properly and ethically as recommended by both myself and many others who have responded.

I'd check your state licensing requirements, because I can't find that exception after a quick check.

Nobody is "blasting" anyone or trying to kneecap and hinder your desire to grow and build your business. You may not think you aren't undermining long established electrical sign companies in your area, but in the end and if you are really honest about it, your cost of doing business and investment without all the same licensing, insurance, equipment, etc. is drastically lower than those type of shops. It doesn't take a CPA to figure out that your profit margin on the exact same job if quoted at the same price is dramatically higher for you.

I'm not speculating about anything. I know for a fact that even with your good intentions, by skirting the regulations, insurance, licensing and permitting requirements, you operate at an unfair and unethical advantage over those doing it the right and proper way.

Who care about those shops? Or any other shops? Not me. Do they care about him? Do the little vinyl guys not get plotters or not make 4' x 8' signs so they won't undermine established businesses? F*ck them all. It's you against living in a van down by the river. If he says he doesn't need a license I believe him.

Now that that's cleared up, when installing the channel letters on the curve, plan to have them stand off the curve, and don't distort them so they are tight against the wall. The faces won't fit if they are distorted.

 

[Andy D]

Who care about those shops? Or any other shops? Not me. Do they care about him? Do the little vinyl guys not get plotters or not make 4' x 8' signs so they won't undermine established businesses? F*ck them all. It's you against living in a van down by the river. If he says he doesn't need a license I believe him.

Pure poetry, Player, pure poetry.....

 

[TimToad]

Who care about those shops? Or any other shops? Not me. Do they care about him? Do the little vinyl guys not get plotters or not make 4' x 8' signs so they won't undermine established businesses? F*ck them all. It's you against living in a van down by the river. If he says he doesn't need a license I believe him.

Now that that's cleared up, when installing the channel letters on the curve, plan to have them stand off the curve, and don't distort them so they are tight against the wall. The faces won't fit if they are distorted.

Sorry, but I've never seen a non-illuminated 4'x8' or vinyl sign go up in flames, but I've seen plenty of examples of badly wired electric signs do so. Hell, even good jobs can go bad, or create a hazard. Even good crane operators have accidents and drop stuff.

I'd be curious to see the generational split on those who have such a cavalier approach versus a more cautious and ethical attitude on the subject.

 

[Andy D]

I'd be curious to see the generational split on those who have such a cavalier approach versus a more cautious and ethical attitude on the subject.

I know I don't act it, but I'm knocking on Fifty.. been doing signs for twenty years and printing for thirty...
And I take exception with with your label of a cavalier approach and insinuating we're unethical.

Silver Star and I have been very politely trying to explain that things are gone about differently here, and I doubt there
is a higher % of sign electrical fires here than anyplace else.

So, let me sum it for you, we don't give a flying f*ck how you do it up north or out west!
Just because it's different doesn't mean it's better.

Have a blessed night!

 

[Ditchmiester]

I know I don't act it, but I'm knocking on Fifty.. been doing signs for twenty years and printing for thirty... And I take exception with with your label of a cavalier approach and insinuating we're unethical. Silver Star and I have been very politely trying to explain that things are gone about differently here, and I doubt there is a higher % of sign electrical fires here than anyplace else. So, let me sum it for you, we don't give a flying f*ck how you do it up north or out west! Just because it's different doesn't mean it's better. Have a blessed night!

+1

 

[player]

Sorry, but I've never seen a non-illuminated 4'x8' or vinyl sign go up in flames, but I've seen plenty of examples of badly wired electric signs do so. Hell, even good jobs can go bad, or create a hazard. Even good crane operators have accidents and drop stuff.

I'd be curious to see the generational split on those who have such a cavalier approach versus a more cautious and ethical attitude on the subject.

Some of us know what we are doing. We know how to wire, build, design, install, repair electric signs. No one gets hurt or dies a fiery, horrible death.

Yet...

 

[Silver Star DC]

only on this forum can you post about an install and get school about licensing.

if this were my job i would crawl up inside and investigate. if all is good i would then order letters.
your letters will come with an install pattern, tape it up there and start drilling. each letter should have long pigtail shove that in the hole and silicone the letters. they should hold fine on their own till silicone sets up

Since you are familiar with wiring go behind wall and hook it up!

Thank you. That's the kind of advice I was looking for. I have never installed individual letters, so I was a little unsure on the process.

 

[Marlene]

Thank you. That's the kind of advice I was looking for. I have never installed individual letters, so I was a little unsure on the process.

I commend you for not losing your cool with some of the posts on your thread. those of us who are in states that have to have electrical permits/licenses/inspections and more can only go by what we know and shouldn't be expected to know the regs for every state so you will get those, like me, who will ask about a license. since it sounds like TN ignores the NEC codes, there might not be a 2' x 2' access panel in that structure. without that, you wouldn't be able to get behind the wall so you'd need to include a site survey in your quote. if you go there and can get into the area behind look for what is behind the exterior material that this curve is made from. if it is jsut a thin material you may also have to include materials to put up behind the wall so it can support the weight of the letters. no matter what, I would do a site survey to take a good look and make a plan as to how you will do this job before giving a quote.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Sorry, but I've never seen a non-illuminated 4'x8' or vinyl sign go up in flames, but I've seen plenty of examples of badly wired electric signs do so. Hell, even good jobs can go bad, or create a hazard. Even good crane operators have accidents and drop stuff.

I'd be curious to see the generational split on those who have such a cavalier approach versus a more cautious and ethical attitude on the subject.

Where did you start 35 years ago. With my experience in the industry...it was at the bottom. You didn't start out as a large shop.
And if you did, you either bought it or inherited it. You didn't have the knowledge that you have now. You learned new things,
you took advice from others to do different things. You were probably as wreckless and unskilled as the corner cutting shops
that you keep referring to. You probably didn't get a license to do anything until someone told you that you needed one while
trying to do an install. And if you did have all that experience before you started YOUR business. That means that you worked
for another shop where they tought you how things were suppose to be done. Then broke out on your own with low overhead
and started competing with them. So what am I doing now that is any different than the way that you started out.

And just to give you an idea of who I am. I'm a 38 year old father of 2. I've been in business for over 6 years, and growing more
and more each year. Expanding my business and offering new services. Before that...I spent 16 years in Engineering. I am a
CAD Design Engineer that has probably designed things you personally own. While in high school and college, I did light construction
and carpentry work to make ends meet. I worked for a man who taught me to do things right the first time. He said, "The extra
time and effort you put in up front, saves you time and money in the long run". I'm OCD, and extremely logical when it comes
to my thinking process. When I finish a job, no matter what that job is. I don't want to see that customer again, unless it is me
coming back to quote and do another job. So now that you know a little about me. Maybe you won't think I am just some young
punk, working out of my house with a "ebay special" vinyl cutter trying to score a big job. I HAVE EXPERIENCE!

 

[Silver Star DC]

I commend you for not losing your cool with some of the posts on your thread. those of us who are in states that have to have electrical permits/licenses/inspections and more can only go by what we know and shouldn't be expected to know the regs for every state so you will get those, like me, who will ask about a license. since it sounds like TN ignores the NEC codes, there might not be a 2' x 2' access panel in that structure. without that, you wouldn't be able to get behind the wall so you'd need to include a site survey in your quote. if you go there and can get into the area behind look for what is behind the exterior material that this curve is made from. if it is jsut a thin material you may also have to include materials to put up behind the wall so it can support the weight of the letters. no matter what, I would do a site survey to take a good look and make a plan as to how you will do this job before giving a quote.

It's ok Marlene. I know the rules and regulations in each state are different. But I will definitely make another trip back to the customers location.
I know I need to see behind the wall to see how it was built. I'm hoping that it was built with 2 by's and wrapped with plywood on that curved surface.
I would much rather screw to the face instead of having to run bolts and nuts to hold the letters on. But as a safety precaution, I could always add
a bolt and nut to the top of every letter.