Chipset and CPU for CET/Fluid Color/Handtop Printers?

[HercuLEAN]

Hello All -

I'm the owner of two CET hybrid printers (I've owned one machine since 2016 and the second I purchased used and is a 2018 vintage. I've recently had a large increase in demand for these machines (running around 20 hours a day now - three shifts), and I've decided I want to upgrade the PC controllers - which are using Windows 7. I've asked the support at CET color about what requirements are for a custom build PC that I'm having built by an individual who builds custom pcs on Etsy, and they informed me I needed:

"300 Series chipset with a 9th Gen CPU", but when I told that to the builder of the PC his response was:

"I see you mentioned the printer & RIP software developers are requiring a 9th gen processor and compatible 300-series motherboard. Did they specify what about these components specifically are what is required for their software? I ask because we're currently up to 14th- going on 15th generation Intel processors and AMD makes some powerful entries nowadays as well. That being said you'd really only be able to find 9th-gen hardware on the used market, or for considerably poor value buying new."

Can anyone recommend or confirm if a newer Chipset and CPU can be used with Handtop/CET printers that have Ricoh Gen 5 printheads and mercury vapor lamps (also one machine has a negative pressure pump system while the other has a newer tank + pump system for negative pressure)? I want the Pcs to support at least Windows 10 and possibly be used as a RIP computer as well as controller with Onyx Thrive RIP. Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated.

I understand some people will say why not build a new printer, and here is why:
1. The machines are in great condition (we do incredible maintenance on them)
2. We know how to run them, and they work really well (with proper knowledge, experience, and maintenance)
3. We can service them for the most part in house
4. They are completely paid off and the maintenance cost is far less than most service contracts would be on a new machine or a payment for a new machine (or two).
5. The electrical and infrastructure needed to run the machines is already done and in place.

Thanks!

H

 

[victor bogdanov]

Did they give you the minimum system requirements? as in at least (not older than) Gen9.

I don't see why the newest PC would not work if you get get the compatible operating system running on it.

Get a new PC for around $1000 from a major retailer, it will be a huge upgrade and if it does not work with your printers return it

 

[parrott]

All valid reasons for keeping the machines, but you may also weigh the pros and cons of upgrading to newer machines. I don't know what the cost of these upgrades are or what all is involved. What I have experienced over the years is you may want to sell machines while they are still worth something and roll that money into something new. You will be surprised how far technology has come in this short amount of time. You could eliminate 2 of your shifts (labor/overhead costs) with one industrial printer (Digitech - LTX2). Far superior quality, speed and durability. We have had ours coming up on 4 years with close to 4 million square ft and only 1 service call!

 

[Solventinkjet]

The computer hardware shouldn't have anything to do with the printer hardware. You just want to make sure the RIP will work on the computer properly. I have a feeling the CET tech just read off the original machine specs and they were written around gen 9. A newer computer should work fine.

 

[HercuLEAN]

The computer hardware shouldn't have anything to do with the printer hardware. You just want to make sure the RIP will work on the computer properly. I have a feeling the CET tech just read off the original machine specs and they were written around gen 9. A newer computer should work fine.

I think and hope you are correct, I do know that we need a motherboard must have PCIex1 (small slot) to interface with the fiberoptic and PCIe ribbon cable for the printers, but besides that I would be surprised that a newer chipset wouldn't work with the printer/controller software.

I will probably have the company build it the PC with newer hardware and hope it works! Thanks for your suggestion!

 

[HercuLEAN]

Did they give you the minimum system requirements? as in at least (not older than) Gen9.

I don't see why the newest PC would not work if you get get the compatible operating system running on it.

Get a new PC for around $1000 from a major retailer, it will be a huge upgrade and if it does not work with your printers return it

It's weird, they make it seem like it has to be an older set, but I think I'll just risk it and go with a newer chipset and hope it works!

Thanks!

 

[HercuLEAN]

All valid reasons for keeping the machines, but you may also weigh the pros and cons of upgrading to newer machines. I don't know what the cost of these upgrades are or what all is involved. What I have experienced over the years is you may want to sell machines while they are still worth something and roll that money into something new. You will be surprised how far technology has come in this short amount of time. You could eliminate 2 of your shifts (labor/overhead costs) with one industrial printer (Digitech - LTX2). Far superior quality, speed and durability. We have had ours coming up on 4 years with close to 4 million square ft and only 1 service call!

Digitech makes a great machine and we looked at it for rigid, but these are hybrids and print mainly roll to roll. Also, we print mainly fine art canvas and found that our art broker customers are very picky, without lclm they were unhappy with the printer quality (even with the smaller droplets, dilute inks make a big difference in image quality). Our next purchase will probably be to upgrade to a Kyocera head on a CET or similar, which is the same heads the Digitechs use.

 

[netsol]

The computer hardware shouldn't have anything to do with the printer hardware. You just want to make sure the RIP will work on the computer properly. I have a feeling the CET tech just read off the original machine specs and they were written around gen 9. A newer computer should work fine.

could they be making use of hyperv support, perhaps?

there also could be NO GOOD REASON for gen 9 support EXCEPT they query the pc ((AND IT DAMN WELL BETTER GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER!)

 

[HercuLEAN]

could they be making use of hyperv support, perhaps?

there also could be NO GOOD REASON for gen 9 support EXCEPT they query the pc ((AND IT DAMN WELL BETTER GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER!)

Hi Netsol -

Not sure I understand your post, can you help me out a little bit?

1) What would it mean if they were 'making use of hyperv support'? I did a quick google and it looks like that came with Windows v 8 as the first/initial version Windows version with support, if that is the case than I don't think the printers are using that as we are still running Windows 7 on the controllers, but I could be wrong (I forgot about 8 - always skipping over Windows 8 and thinking of at least Windows 10 or now Windows 11).

2) What do you mean by: "there also could be NO GOOD REASON for gen 9 support EXCEPT they query the pc ((AND IT DAMN WELL BETTER GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER!)"?

Thanks for your response, I appreciate the help!

 

[netsol]

Did they give you the minimum system requirements? as in at least (not older than) Gen9.

I don't see why the newest PC would not work if you get get the compatible operating system running on it.

Get a new PC for around $1000 from a major retailer, it will be a huge upgrade and if it does not work with your printers return it

ANSWER!)"?

i was speculating what changed between gen 8 &earlier chipsets (not suitable) & gen 9 & newer (suitable)

RIGHT AROUND THAT TIME they enhanced HYPERV support (for running VM's) dramatically incresing the number of cores the processor "thinks it has" (i installed some dells this week with gen 11 processor. in device manager, they report 20 CORES.)

 

[damonCA21]

Are the computers dedicated ones that just run the printers and nothing else? If so you may find a newer machine makes no difference. RIPs and printer software generally use very little resources, so you don't normally need anything new and powerful to run them. The printer will only run as fast as its own internal processor, the only thing a newer PC would do is ( maybe ) send the files to it a bit quicker

 

[damonCA21]

You may also find if you update to Win10 for example it actually runs slower as there is so much bloatware included in the newer OS compared to the older ones

 

[netsol]

MAY FIND IT RUNS SLOWER?
you are a cock eyed optimist!

 

[damonCA21]

MAY FIND IT RUNS SLOWER?
you are a cock eyed optimist!

Win10 is abysmal ! I installed it for a while, then went back to Win7 as it made everything worse than before!

 

[HercuLEAN]

Win10 is abysmal ! I installed it for a while, then went back to Win7 as it made everything worse than before!

I like windows 11 better than 10, but unfortunately I have been told the controller software for the CET printers doesn't work yet with Windows 11...

My network/it company doesn't want Windows 7 PCs on the network as they don't have some security stuff I am told makes us vulnerable.

 

[HercuLEAN]

Are the computers dedicated ones that just run the printers and nothing else? If so you may find a newer machine makes no difference. RIPs and printer software generally use very little resources, so you don't normally need anything new and powerful to run them. The printer will only run as fast as its own internal processor, the only thing a newer PC would do is ( maybe ) send the files to it a bit quicker

We will be using the PC to run a RIP (Onyx Thrive) along with the CET controller software. This will allow us to RIP files faster. In our experience the RIP and processing files actually take up significant resources. For example we printed 48 banners this week on the two printers that were 50 ft long x 6 ft high. The file was 954 mb, and when ripped for printing ended up creating a prt file that was 30+ gb.

We also printed canvases that were 80" x 90" artwork scans in a tiff file format from an art broker, the files were 2 GB before ripping and ended up creating 12GB prt files.

Ripping these files across the network vs. To a local hard disk also slows down our workflow, that is why we want the RIP to be on the same system as the printer controller.

When ripping files I think the real factor for resource use is what your print files are like (if we were printing 2x3 posters that were mainly text, the RIP probably wouldn't use much, but for some reason our customers love to give us challenging files!).

Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it!!!

 

[HercuLEAN]

Hello All,

As I had mentioned in my OP, I am working with a person to build a custom PC for our needs (we will build 1 first and test to see if it works. If it does, I will build a second PC). As mentioned in the OP I want to use the PC to control a Handtop/CEzt/Fluid Color Hybrid printer with Rocoh Gen 5 heads. Here is what the contractor is looking to use for my PC build. Please let me know if this all looks like it will be ideal for RIPPING files with Onyx Thrive 22.5 or newer.

" It appears ONYX Thrive prioritizes processors with high clock speeds opposed to many more cores, which is beneficial as we can get you something like a high-end consumer-grade processor opposed to a server-grade processor. Something like an Intel Core i9-13900 or i9-14900 processor can get you up to 24 cores and 32 threads at 5.5GHz to 6GHz.

Something else I observed is ONYX really doesn’t seem to utilize a dedicated video card at all, let alone needing one with high performance. This means we can save a ton of money per system as the integrated graphics on an i9-13900K can support up to 4 monitor outputs all by itself. That would allow us to select a motherboard with plenty of display outputs to take care of this requirement, and whatever board we select will almost certainly meet your additional needs of lots of RAM, 4+ USB 3.0 ports, and enough PCIe slots for your fiber optic network card.

The MSI PRO B760M-A WIFI motherboard comes standard with dual HDMI outputs as well as dual DisplayPort outputs for up to 4 displays connected right to the CPU’s integrated graphics. We still have the option of including a dedicated video card to get you even more video outputs and to have a bit of graphics horsepower should your workflow needs change in the future, and with the budget you have the sky is the limit with what options we can include. Something such as an RTX 3050 6GB (while not really my first choice for the more gaming-oriented builds I normally do) can be purchased brand new very easily, comes with 6GB of video memory which should be well enough for your workload, and its relatively new age practically guarantees driver updates for at least the next 8+ years or so."

Does that sound like a good option for a CPU and MB for a PC for Onyx Thrive RIP? It is also worth noting that we have a few constraints for the PC build, it needs to fit into a specific case that fits into the Printer body, and it has to allow for a PCIe x1 card to connect to the printer. So I am trying to go with the best that fits those other requirements.

 

[victor bogdanov]

Onyx will use 1 core per rip if you have 4 rip licenses you'll use up to 4 cores when ripping 4 files at the same time. Any modern mid to high end CPU will work fine.

Onboard graphics will be totally fine.

Ripping big files takes a while, a 6ft x 150ft banner file takes about 15 minutes to RIP on my 7950X3D (one of the fastest consumer CPU right now) but with 4 RIP licenses ripping 4 at a time also take just 15 minutes. Much longer to print so really rarely waiting on RIP to finish as it is done while printer is printing another job.

 

[HercuLEAN]

Onyx will use 1 core per rip if you have 4 rip licenses you'll use up to 4 cores when ripping 4 files at the same time. Any modern mid to high end CPU will work fine.

Onboard graphics will be totally fine.

Ripping big files takes a while, a 6ft x 150ft banner file takes about 15 minutes to RIP on my 7950X3D (one of the fastest consumer CPU right now) but with 4 RIP licenses ripping 4 at a time also take just 15 minutes. Much longer to print so really rarely waiting on RIP to finish as it is done while printer is printing another job.

Wow, yes I have 12 RIPs distributed across several workstations and printers, each of our CET printers have two RIPs. With our current i9 NUC PCs we use for RIPPING (also going across our network) the 6x50 banner we ripped last week took a little over an hour, and we printed 5 different 10x20 banners last week and each banner design took around 40-50 minutes to rip. I would love a 5 minute rip, was that being ripped and printed on the fly to a printer like an Epson OR ripped to a file location on a PC like my CET printers need?

 

[victor bogdanov]

If your rip time are that long you'll see a pretty good improvement upgrading computer.

I'm ripping whole file before sending full file to Canon Colorado. not rip/print at the same time

Most of my files take under a minute but the full roll file can take 10-15 min