Need Help Client requesting files

[bannertime]

This isn't about whether to send the files or not. If they paid for the work, you send it, if they didn't then you don't. You'd do better by asking them what's going on and what you can do to keep their business. You may not be able to do anything about it, and there's no reason to burn that bridge. We've lost and then gained customers back before. We've also been the new vendor and have kept customers from going back and even lost some that did go back.

These are still people that you are dealing with. If you blow them off, you'll never hear from them again. If that's what you want, then great. If not, just be a bit more understanding of the situation. People don't always stay in the same position. Maybe one day someone that used to work with you from there will get you more work. We get asked occasionally if we still did something and that they remembered us from when they interned at a theme park. Interns from like 10-15 years ago that are now in positions of buying authority getting us decent work. I've got a handful more stores of very similar situations.

 

[Bigdawg]

Most of the time we send back whatever they sent us originally. We tell our customers that we don't release our working files. However, if we vectorize a logo - and charged the customer extra $$ explicitly to redraw the logo - we provide them the vector OF THE LOGO ONLY if requested. We never send any sign layouts no matter if they paid any charges for setup or not. I think in the 10 years I've been with this company, only one customer has gotten upset and didn't come back because we wouldn't send him our composited files.

 

[brycesteiner]

This isn't about whether to send the files or not. If they paid for the work, you send it, if they didn't then you don't.

I don't think this is correct - at least not for me. When customers pay for my time, they don't automatically own the files created. They get to own the use of the artwork from the files I created. It may sound the same but it's not. It's like when you buy software, you are not buying the code to edit as you please. You are strictly buying the use of the software only - a license to use.

 

[ikarasu]

You can ignore them. And in the future, I'm sure theyll remember that.

Print shops are a dime a dozen. Half of them price themselves so low they'll be out of business in a year or two.

They probably found a shop that's 75% of your price, so they used some BS excuse to switch to them. What's going to happen in 1-2 months when they find out the quality of work is subpar? Or in 4 months when halftheir orders show up late because the new place is overwhelmed and can't afford to hire help? Or in 6 months when the new guys prices all of a sudden shoot through the roof? Or in a year when that person closes shop?

Itheyll remember you werent helpful and held their files hostage, and look for another be for.

We usually provide the customer with all their files if they want. Ask them why they're leaving, what they believe we could have improved on to have made them happier, what it would take to keep their business with us... And if all else fails, wish them luck and let them know they can keep in touch incase their needs change.


Losing a client sucks... But once they decide to go, you don't win them back by being uncooperative. There's always a chance they'll come back... No point in burning bridges and ensuring they don't.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Print shops are a dime a dozen.

Very much the same thing with embroidery shops, perhaps even more so as the form factor of the machine(s) needed can be quite a bit smaller then printers as well. Not all the time, but they can be.

They probably found a shop that's 75% of your price, so they used some BS excuse to switch to them. What's going to happen in 1-2 months when they find out the quality of work is subpar?

Part of what sets apart one shop from another is the knowledge that goes into those production files. Yes, how the machine is used plays a part (which is the easiest thing to learn), but how a production file is setup is very much is what sets one shop apart from another (at least in my world). Given the pervasiveness of bad info that floats around in setting up production files, even here (at least for the type of production files that would affect me), giving my production files would be automatically taking care of 90% of the quality concern for the next shop. That would give the next shop a lot (and I mean a lot) of wiggle room to mess up.

 

[bannertime]

I don't think this is correct - at least not for me. When customers pay for my time, they don't automatically own the files created. They get to own the use of the artwork from the files I created. It may sound the same but it's not. It's like when you buy software, you are not buying the code to edit as you please. You are strictly buying the use of the software only - a license to use.

That's just breaking it down into the little details. IF they paid for the files then they should get them. If they didn't, then don't send them. However deep you want to go is really besides the point. No matter what though, if they are a customer worth trying to keep, they should send the files.

Why did I leave At&t? Because I didn't feel like I was getting the best service. Why will I NEVER return to them? Because retention refused to work with me when I suggested how we could fix the root of the problem for my service, they said audios and cancelled my plan faster than I could even request it.

It appears that no one cares about customer service anymore. There are companies that I may never buy from again, but because of the way they handled the situations, I wouldn't hesitate to use them again if the need came to be. There are companies that had a great product that I'll never use again because of the way they handled the situation.

 

[brycesteiner]

If they are asking for the sign files then you have already lost them and there is nothing you are going to do to get them back. This is not the same thing as them wanting their logo that's a vector for a t-shirt they plan to get made. I have no problem with giving their logo for this. We are talking about giving them files such as brochures, signs, booklets, banners, wrap files, etc. If they are asking for them, you won't get them back. This is work that I own, not them. They paid for time alone, nothing else. If they want the logo, fine. Artwork is completely different though.

 

[bannertime]

If they are asking for the sign files then you have already lost them and there is nothing you are going to do to get them back. This is not the same thing as them wanting their logo that's a vector for a t-shirt they plan to get made. I have no problem with giving their logo for this. We are talking about giving them files such as brochures, signs, booklets, banners, wrap files, etc. If they are asking for them, you won't get them back. This is work that I own, not them. They paid for time alone, nothing else. If they want the logo, fine. Artwork is completely different though.

Talking as if you've only been in the business for a few years. As I said before, we've been in the exact same scenario many times. Some times we've lost them for good, but probably another third or half the time, we've gotten them back. If you want to burn bridges like an immature child, then go for it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

As I said before, we've been in the exact same scenario many times.

Experiences will vary, it may even vary within different trades.

If you want to burn bridges like an immature child, then go for it.

This is why everything should be spelled out before work is done. Both parties need to know where they stand. Now, if they forget or didn't read it all the way or whatever BS excuse, that's on them.

While I don't give out production files (even if I did give them out, while the files aren't proprietary, they are just CSV files after all, not many people are going to know how to get them to work on the machines) when I'm only contracted out for the final embroidered good, there is nothing wrong with having a policy of doing so. Each has their pros and cons.


Now, I will say this (and this isn't directed to anyone specifically in this thread, just something that I've read in another forum and have been on the receiving end as well), if you are going to give the files, don't do some passive aggressive childish BS thing like modified the file or just in general making it even more difficult for the next shop to use. While it is the customer in the end have the problem with, it does affect the other shop as well and there may actually be a legitimate reason your customer went away. Even the classic, oh they were cheaper, reason, the other shop may be cheaper for a legitimate reason (scaling, efficiency etc). If you are going to give them the file, just give them the file.

 

[Bobby H]

What do you have to gain by holding files hostage from a client that has gone to another vendor? Do you think that will result in them bailing on the new vendor and coming back to you?

It depends on the kind of artwork the client provided and the customer history of that client.

If they provided production-ready vector-based artwork then there's no problem forwarding a copy of that logo. Still, I would wonder why the client didn't email the same logo to the other sign company themselves, unless they lost the artwork. Seen it before.

Now, if I had a vectorize a client's low res JPEG "logo" and re-build it into something actually useful I would forward that production ready artwork to a rival sign company only under certain circumstances, like if the client already had an established history of buying product from us.

Our shop doesn't charge up front for design work; we build that into the sign project itself. On more than a few occasions we've had clients go round and round in the design stage, get near to closing the deal only to back out at the last second, taking the deal to an under-bidding rival sign company. That's part of the sign business. But it's pretty funny when they or the rival sign company have the audacity to ask for our art files. In those cases we won't provide those files without getting paid for our time. The rival, under-bid shop is not getting those files for free. If the client tries to claim ownership of those files because it has their business name on it we'll happily delete those files.

Some prospective clients will do nothing but waste your time. They'll come to you first since you're the more professional shop and let you do the brain work figuring out their project. Then, like clock work, they'll take those concepts and let someone else crank out the work for less. Each customer is different and sometimes deserve different treatment. Some who mostly jerk us around may get charged up front for design and bidding services. We've told some others not to call us anymore after repeatedly burning us. We're pretty busy as it is. So we don't need customers who really don't intend to buy anything from us wasting our time.

Now, I will say this, even if I give them my production files (the ones that I actually use for production, not just me saving it into a different format to make things difficult for them (I'm not too fond of when people do that)) when it isn't stipulated, most shops aren't going to be able to use them.

That kind of gets into the issue of lower bidding rivals using cheaper graphics software and sign making software. In the cases where I freely provide production ready art files to another company they might be getting artwork built up in the lastest versions of CorelDRAW or Illustrator. The artwork may have effects or other features in there that are dependent on those applications. If the rival calls back saying the artwork won't load correctly in their $200 vinyl cutting package I'll tell them, "looks like you need to upgrade to some better software." I'm not going to go re-building some art files to dumb it down for someone else's cheap software, at least not without getting paid for it.

 

[Dan360]

We charge handsomely for design, when customers ask for files we supply them without a problem. Everything we have to do to files, from design to alterations, is charged for and considered bought.

We've had larger customers come to us from different shops that refused to give them their files, we just end up charging them design time to recreate. They've always been happy to pay just to get away from them, more money for us.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

That kind of gets into the issue of lower bidding rivals using cheaper graphics software and sign making software. In the cases where I freely provide production ready art files to another company they might be getting artwork built up in the lastest versions of CorelDRAW or Illustrator. The artwork may have effects or other features in there that are dependent on those applications. If the rival calls back saying the artwork won't load correctly in their $200 vinyl cutting package I'll tell them, "looks like you need to upgrade to some better software." I'm not going to go re-building some art files to dumb it down for someone else's cheap software, at least not without getting paid for it.

This isn't the same challenge in this trade. Unless sending object based files and you have to not only have the exact software, but the exact version (or newer) in order for that to work (in some instances, the same problem you have with DRAW and legacy support, also exists in embroidery software as well, they only read native program files so far back).

In my instance, when I'm doing production myself and I'm not being contracted out to other shops, I use software that exports CSV (it has to in order for me to use other codes for my machines like slow/fast, sequin drops etc) and then I run that CSV through a program (CLI based) that converts it on the fly. So my production file is a CSV file itself.

Now, if I'm contracted to send out a file itself, the client wants the stitch file, then it's DST (unless specified otherwise). Any program should be able to read that, even older programs, no matter what effects are used etc. A raw stitch file is akin to a jpg/png. The only time a legacy software will get you into trouble is if the pattern has trims, but the software is so old, it doesn't support that function (we are talking Win 98 era, which there are still some portable programs floating around that are that old and haven't been updated in any form since 2006). Considering that there are free conversion software out there that won't have that issue, that should be a none issue.

 

[qmr55]

What do you have to gain by holding files hostage from a client that has gone to another vendor? Do you think that will result in them bailing on the new vendor and coming back to you?

This. Send them the damn files, they're gone for good if you blow them off or refuse. But if you're helpful, give them whats needed, and offer your services to them in a professional matter, you may get them back.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Don't send them your production files. Send them the original files from the design firm if you still have them.

Unless you agreed to turn over any production files you created, as far as I know, you have zero obligation to provide production files.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Unless you agreed to turn over any production files you created, as far as I know, you have zero obligation to provide production files.

To me this is the big thing here. I just would add to make sure that, even if they don't mention it, you have it on the contract that says where those files stay or if they go.

The contract is for the finished product (in most instances) not giving over what was left that was used in getting there.

Technically speaking, they paid for the scrapes that came off the consumables that were used during the production of item(s). Should we not be giving them that also? They paid for those consumables that were used in that project.

In my experience, I've never known a screen printer to have to deal with the question of a customer asking for the screens that were used in the production process after the fact. I've never had someone ask me for the pattern that I created for their table runner, pillow cases or even shirts when I created everything from the ground up, including the substrates(some of those are physical only, some are digital, some started off as physical patterns and were converted to digital for my later use (most aren't aware of the nature of those patterns, they could care less)), but it seems like digital files like this, they think it should be fair game.

I don't know, I guess to me, it just seems like another misconception of the creative process in this digital age.

 

[Bobby H]

Send them the damn files, they're gone for good if you blow them off or refuse. But if you're helpful, give them whats needed, and offer your services to them in a professional matter, you may get them back.

In my 25+ years of experience the customers that have been on a paying basis usually stay with us. But I have no problem giving those kinds of customers high quality art files. They usually need those assets for other advertising purposes, not handing them off to a rival sign company under-bidding us on a job.

More often companies wanting art files from us are companies that haven't even bought anything yet. When I get a call from another sign company wanting artwork from sketches I made for a bid I'm not going just "send them the damn files." If they're getting the job instead me but wanting to use my art files they can pay for the time it took to create those files. Or they can make their own files.

One sneaky ploy from customers who haven't bought anything yet is asking for art files to use in a newspaper ad or some other purpose when they really intend to send the files to a rival sign shop. Been there done that too. Once a customer is on a paying basis they can get some high quality assets. There's no free lunch until then.

 

[TimToad]

You have three choices.

The first is to give up your files and move on with life. Life is too short.

The second is to simply say "Our company policy is not to release print ready files. I apologize for the inconvenience."

Third, you can charge some sort of fee to release the print ready artwork.

At the end of the day, it's all about how you want to run your business. Personally, if I'm in this situation and they're only asking for 1-2 files, I'd send them some proof quality artwork and call it a day. If they asked for better, I'd say something like "This is all we can provide at this time." That way the other shop has some reference to what was done but they're still going to have to put effort forth into getting the job done.

The reality is, one of the major benefits of this type of business is the repeat business because you have the layouts on file. It makes the customer's life easier because they know you have everything setup and ready to go. You like it, because it's faster than setting up every job and you've done the hard work of getting everything figured out and setup the first time.

Your comments remind me of that discussion about selling one's business and whether one's client list and files had any value. It's obvious in this context that they do have substantial value and if we freely give them so a client who hires a new office manager can appear busy by going out shopping for a new sign vendor after being hired, we ultimately shoot ourselves in the foot while making our competitor's work gleaning our clients that much easier.

In many cases, it's not that any of us did anything wrong or the work wasn't up to snuff or overpriced. It was simply that a new contact person was hired and they wanted to impress their new employers by "improving" the value the company was getting out of their vendors.

 

[Gino]

You people wanna sound so smart and on top of things, but yet, you hide behind common policy.

If you buy a refrigerator or some can opener, you get to see everything from where it's made to how to handle things if you don't like it ot it breaks. Everything..... and I mean everything......... is spelled out for you. There are no questions needed. If someone wants to replace their broken can opener, they either go back and negotiater or move on, but they don't get the skematics to them somewhere else. It wasn't written on the sales slip or up on their wall that you could even entertain the idea.

If you don't outline before the sale, they cannot have said files, then why wouldn't they be entitled to such things, but if you explicitly have in writing what they do get and don't get, then you wouldn't be in this fix.

Working files, production files, proofs ot whatever ya wanna call them...... ya need to tell your customers what's happening in today's society. Otherwise, they can demand just about anything and since you didn't cover your butt, you in the wrong.

Maybe you just wanna have a sign in your reception area that says....... when you buy a sign here, you get a sign and nothing else. You don't get files we worked on, you don't get production files to take somewhere else, you don't get a jpeg to use on your website, you don't get squat. So, don't ask me in two years for this stuff, unless you wanna pay for them as you go.

 

[fresh]

You people wanna sound so smart and on top of things, but yet, you hide behind common policy.

If you buy a refrigerator or some can opener, you get to see everything from where it's made to how to handle things if you don't like it ot it breaks. Everything..... and I mean everything......... is spelled out for you. There are no questions needed. If someone wants to replace their broken can opener, they either go back and negotiater or move on, but they don't get the skematics to them somewhere else. It wasn't written on the sales slip or up on their wall that you could even entertain the idea.

If you don't outline before the sale, they cannot have said files, then why wouldn't they be entitled to such things, but if you explicitly have in writing what they do get and don't get, then you wouldn't be in this fix.

Working files, production files, proofs ot whatever ya wanna call them...... ya need to tell your customers what's happening in today's society. Otherwise, they can demand just about anything and since you didn't cover your butt, you in the wrong.

Maybe you just wanna have a sign in your reception area that says....... when you buy a sign here, you get a sign and nothing else. You don't get files we worked on, you don't get production files to take somewhere else, you don't get a jpeg to use on your website, you don't get squat. So, don't ask me in two years for this stuff, unless you wanna pay for them as you go.

Everyone once in a while Gino, you make a good, clear point. Cheers.

Yes, I agree with everything you said here. Great way to make the point on who has access to the files.

 

[Johnny Best]

Everyone gives good advice, but who are you going to listen to? I do not like running a business on fear. Fear of losing the client, Fear of not pulling a permit and city finds out, Fear of letters falling off, getting paid, employees quitting.
So you will just ignore it and then fear they will ask again. You say the new person who orders things does not want to use you and will use someone else. I fear your work might not be up to par for this new guy and he knows someone who does a better job. Go take him out to lunch and find the reason he does not want to use you and try to convince him to use you and bring the files he needs on a CD.