Need Help Client requesting files

[ColorCrest]

Where does your method account for good, best, and better in a scenario like that apply?

The basic variables are the costs of machine time, labor time, & materials along with margin.

I ask myself what are my quoting options for any of these variables when I pull up a list using my line item in a price breakdown fashion. A-grade vs B-grade, A-list vs B-list, expedite vs standard vs economy, new vs used / recycled / remnant?

Often some flexibility but not always.

 

[TimToad]

The basic variables are the costs of machine time, labor time, & materials along with margin.

I ask myself what are my quoting options for any of these variables when I pull up a list using my line item in a price breakdown fashion. A-grade vs B-grade, A-list vs B-list, expedite vs standard vs economy, new vs used / recycled / remnant?

Often some flexibility but not always.

Are you able to answer how that method applies to the specific examples listed?

It feels like you and others are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole but never answer how you'd quote such a project.

Your client is unhappy with the quality of the materials and workmanship of the wraps they have been receiving. They have specific requirements and goals for this project. They are telling you that they are very quality conscious.

How does a scale of options address those project needs?

 

[Johnny Best]

Well, as far as cast material you have 3M, Orajet, Avery, MacTac and Arlon. There is a price difference with their cast material and overlap. With knowledge of how each one will fit your needs.
So ColorCrest might have those figures plus others dialed into his three tiered proposal. And that’s just with cast material, He has labor and equipment time as he mentioned in there also. You expect to give them the best quality workmanship, they should know that already by your background if they checked you out. If not you have to prove yourself.
I like ColorCrest method, give you some options in the bid process if they come back and tell you your to high. But in Toad’s case they just said they were not using his services and did not give him a reason.

 

[ColorCrest]

It feels like you and others are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole but never answer how you'd quote such a project.

I'm guessing if your prospect would have come back to you with requests to massage some prices here and there, I'm inclined to think you might entertain them especially if they know the material & services well as you say. If you would not "sharpen your pencil," then so be it.

The method of offering options is just using the "sharpened pencil" ahead of any requests to do so. There is also a perceived notion in a buyer that they are getting a good price against higher or lower priced items whether any value is real or not.

I've learned a large part of salesmanship and winning bids is to provide options and solutions to address needs. My earlier post is just one method of what works, sometimes.

 

[ColorCrest]

But in Toad’s case they just said they were not using his services and did not give him a reason.

I know this keeps some salespeople up at night and they don't rest 'til they learn why, but then again some salespeople are just restless.

 

[TimToad]

Well, as far as cast material you have 3M, Orajet, Avery, MacTac and Arlon. There is a price difference with their cast material and overlap. With knowledge of how each one will fit your needs.
So ColorCrest might have those figures plus others dialed into his three tiered proposal. And that’s just with cast material, He has labor and equipment time as he mentioned in there also. You expect to give them the best quality workmanship, they should know that already by your background if they checked you out. If not you have to prove yourself.
I like ColorCrest method, give you some options in the bid process if they come back and tell you your to high. But in Toad’s case they just said they were not using his services and did not give him a reason.

I appreciate you staying on top of the particulars of THIS project.

We use a tiered approach all the time on projects where the client isn't forthcoming on their budget, is uncertain of their desired durability expectations or aesthetic preferences, etc.

The difference between a 54"x150' media/lam of the cheapest cast wrap material worth working with is only about $300-400 between the lowest and highest. Not really enough room to substantially tier a quote from. The ink and machine costs are identical whether you're using the cheapest or most expensive media and laminate. The installation labor costs for using lesser material are actually higher because of the greater ease of working with better material, so unless you're training chimps to do it and feeding them bananas and not real money, I'm just not sure where the "tiered" approach can be applied.

I really think we've beat this horse to death and don't have anything else to add.

 

[TimToad]

I'm guessing if your prospect would have come back to you with requests to massage some prices here and there, I'm inclined to think you might entertain them especially if they know the material & services well as you say. If you would not "sharpen your pencil," then so be it.

The method of offering options is just using the "sharpened pencil" ahead of any requests to do so. There is also a perceived notion in a buyer that they are getting a good price against higher or lower priced items whether any value is real or not.

I've learned a large part of salesmanship and winning bids is to provide options and solutions to address needs. My earlier post is just one method of what works, sometimes.

THERE WERE NO OPTIONS TO TIER IN THIS PROJECT!

What part of my posts did you not read about them calling and talking with us multiple times after receiving the quotes and saying that the pricing was very fair and well within their budget expectations and plans?

Or the same conversations with them asking us about scheduling and timelines for each portion of the first phase of the project?

Unless they were lying the whole time during those subsequent conversations, they didn't reject our quotes based on pricing UNLESS someone came in at the 11th hour and blew the floor out of the deal during that holiday week period when we didn't have any contact with them.

The tiered method isn't "sharpening the pencil", its offering a range of options with scaled expectations on materials, durability, complexity, options, etc..

"Sharpening one's pencil" is coming back and offering the SAME product at a lower cost out of fear of losing the project. The proverbial "would you rather have 90% of something or 100% of nothing" equation that has helped drag our craft down as much as any single factor i can think of. Gee, where and how many thousands of times have we all heard that one from the mediocre signmaking crowd in our lifetimes as they scurry to grovel for whatever they can get from a client and then gouge the next unsuspecting sucker to make up for the losses on the projects they "sharpened their pencils" for?

I just had a potential customer call an hour ago and ask us to see how we can lower the cost of an upcoming project to better fit their budget constraints. The job calls for a big cutout logo panel, some 16" tall stud mounted dimensional letters and window graphics. They have two big picture windows we're putting 52"x52" circular logos on and a frosted bar along the bottom of the windows with words cut out of it.

Did I just "sharpen my pencil" and lower the price for the same thing out of fear of losing the job?

No, I've developed a rapport with these folks and want to see them get the best signs they can afford through us. We dropped the size of the dimensional letters a couple inches in height and will make them in house out of 1/2" white PVC instead of buying 1/2" acrylic letters through Gemini, scaled down the window logos a bit and recalculated our install time to reflect the time savings doing those elements a little smaller.

 

[Johnny Best]

The expression is ”beating a dead horse” not ”beating a horse to death.”
So getting a call from a customer and they ask if you can reduce money to fit their budget and then you cutting sizes and logos to reduce price. Would not that be considered your second tier pricing. And getting chimps and feeding them bananas, is not that your third tier pricing.

 

[ColorCrest]

Tim,

Maybe take a look back and be reminded of context of my posts. I did not initially quote you or propose tiered pricing to you specifically. I broadcast the notion, is all. Later I quoted you in attempt to answer particular questions you had. Also know I hear "sharpen the pencil" often and I don't identify you with that term.

 

[TimToad]

The expression is ”beating a dead horse” not ”beating a horse to death.”
So getting a call from a customer and they ask if you can reduce money to fit their budget and then you cutting sizes and logos to reduce price. Would not that be considered your second tier pricing. And getting chimps and feeding them bananas, is not that your third tier pricing.

If we want to have a purely semantical argument, then maybe your point applies, but to me the entire premise of "tiered" pricing is something you do in the beginning of the process by offering several different options in order to ascertain what a potential client's comfort zone and expectations are if they aren't being clear or specific. A practice that we regularly use as well when it applies.

You can call it whatever you want, but it would only be our second tier pricing if we had presented them with three options to begin with. They came in and like most clients who are reluctant to offer up their budget limits out of fear of contractors fitting the work to what they share, didn't share any budget range information, just some very specific things and sizes they wanted. To which we quoted. Some of us forget that the majority of small business clients are new to the business world and many are starting or buying their first business. They usually have no idea of what any of this stuff costs. They also usually don't decide on their signage until late in the game when other costs and expenses have already dug into their advertising budget.

Some know what they want and inside their heads they might have an idea what it might cost, but they know what they want to spend and that's where things get more complicated and require us to be ready to adapt to those changing parameters of the project.

 

[TimToad]

Tim,

Maybe take a look back and be reminded of context of my posts. I did not initially quote you or propose tiered pricing to you specifically. I broadcast the notion, is all. Later I quoted you in attempt to answer particular questions you had. Also know I hear "sharpen the pencil" often and I don't identify you with that term.

Then we're in the same boat. I only shared my project story to introduce a real world example of human nature or the vagaries of some client's decision making processes influencing a perfectly normal situation. How doing that took on another life and got away from its original premise is something social media seems to have a knack for doing.

Have a good one.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Then we're in the same boat. I only shared my project story to introduce a real world example of human nature or the vagaries of some client's decision making processes influencing a perfectly normal situation. How doing that took on another life and got away from its original premise is something social media seems to have a knack for doing.

Have a good one.

Maybe you were just priced too high... The other bidder may be more efficiently using his time during the day to achieve more productivity and thus, lower is overhead.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

but to me the entire premise of "tiered" pricing is something you do in the beginning of the process by offering several different options in order to ascertain what a potential client's comfort zone and expectations are if they aren't being clear or specific. A practice that we regularly use as well when it applies.

More often then not this is true, but I have actually had some that wanted X, but their budget could only handle X - 3. And at times this was only ascertained after they talked about what someone else quoted and they didn't realize that what they were quoted originally by me was top tier (which was X) and what they were getting from the other competitor (X - 3) was more budget friendly and I would have a tier that came close to that. Now if they still wanted less then that, then bye-bye.

They didn't even know that I had tiered pricing, because they asked for top shelf from the get go.

We don't know why they chose someone else.

Any reason why they went with someone else is possible (not to say very likely, just possible).

Automatically assuming it had to be for lower prices is wrong and calling them up to grovel by lowering our prices after accurately quoting according to the system we have in place would be putting us at a disadvantage and only further the race to the bottom being waged by the low quality, low skilled vendors in ours and most areas.

Any reason is up for grabs without knowing.

Now, if it is due to pricing, offering the other 2 options that are part of your standard tiered pricing after realizing that they are more budget conscious then they may have led you to believe earlier isn't putting you at a disadvantage. Because those other options would have already been in your system in place. If you don't have a tiered system in place, then yes that does put you at a disadvantage or if you go outside the boundaries of your tiered system that may put you at a disadvantage.

However, not really knowing why they didn't go with you, this is all moot, because anything is possible, even though it may not seem like it's very likely, it is still possible.

 

[rossmosh]

So a client comes to you with an interior graphics project that calls for metal faced, 1" thick dimensional foam letters stud mounted on textured walls, a few instances of diecut vinyl letters going on textured walls, 3'x4' clear acrylic panels with text on them and MBS standoffs and needing two cars and two vans wrapped to start with. Next year, they want the badly done full wraps on all dozen or more Transport vans they have plus a few new vehicles peeled and wrapped.

They know exactly what they want and last time I checked, except for brand choices, cast wrap material is pretty similar in price. So is the labor involved in removing the poorly executed vehicle wraps that generated the sales inquiry to start with as well as the installation of all the interior graphics and new wraps. These are specific products and services being quoted. You understand that right?

Where does your method account for good, best, and better in a scenario like that apply?

This is a waste of time.

Your example is not necessarily a real world scenario. The good, better, best model is far more realistic. "Hi, I have a wall in my building. I want my logo up there. What can you offer?"

Then you start with the good = Vinyl slapped on the wall. Better = part vinyl, part dimensional using cost effective but appropriate materials. Best = Vinyl wall paper, lots of dimension with letters and interesting materials, etc.

And there is no reason you can't necessarily combine some of the ideas as well. But the idea is to offer customers 3 main options on how to do the job at different budget points and let them decide how much they do or don't want to spend.

If a customer walks in and the job is all spec'd out and your job is just to quote it, that's a completely different job. But even then, I'll typically sit down and see if I can figure out a way to do the job where the end result is essentially the same but with a few cost saving measures. For example, swapping from cut acrylic to PVC is one of my favorite ways to save money on dimensional sign jobs. Very similar look for a much smaller budget.

Lastly, anyone that doesn't talk budget early on in the project is making a mistake. People with $100 in their pocket often act like they have $1000. No point in selling high end stuff to people with no money or people unwilling to spend money. If they walk in the door expecting to spend $1000, you might as well sell them something for $1000 +/- or clue them in and see if they want to bump up their budget.

 

[TimToad]

Maybe you were just priced too high... The other bidder may be more efficiently using his time during the day to achieve more productivity and thus, lower is overhead.

Ooh... that really hurts coming from a guy who used to post 30-40 times a day when you were Texas_signmaker and now 20-30 times a day under your new identity.

Nice straw man argument and attempt at an insult.

Is that really the best you can Do?

Stick to the shallow end of the pool, son. I've seen your work and followed your schtick for enough years to know you're in no position to be judging anyone's use of their time.

In a previous job, I was a 911 Dispatcher.

Guess what we all can Do with ease?

Multi task AND type between 50-60 words per minute or more.

 

[TimToad]

Your example is not necessarily a real world scenario. The good, better, best model is far more realistic. "Hi, I have a wall in my building. I want my logo up there. What can you offer?"

Then you start with the good = Vinyl slapped on the wall. Better = part vinyl, part dimensional using cost effective but appropriate materials. Best = Vinyl wall paper, lots of dimension with letters and interesting materials, etc.

And there is no reason you can't necessarily combine some of the ideas as well. But the idea is to offer customers 3 main options on how to do the job at different budget points and let them decide how much they do or don't want to spend.

If a customer walks in and the job is all spec'd out and your job is just to quote it, that's a completely different job. But even then, I'll typically sit down and see if I can figure out a way to do the job where the end result is essentially the same but with a few cost saving measures. For example, swapping from cut acrylic to PVC is one of my favorite ways to save money on dimensional sign jobs. Very similar look for a much smaller budget.

Lastly, anyone that doesn't talk budget early on in the project is making a mistake. People with $100 in their pocket often act like they have $1000. No point in selling high end stuff to people with no money or people unwilling to spend money. If they walk in the door expecting to spend $1000, you might as well sell them something for $1000 +/- or clue them in and see if they want to bump up their budget.

So you're another one who just ignored everything that has been posted already about the project and the specifics of it to make yet another unrelated point that ignores the facts?

I didn't make up the details of the project or how it got handled. It most certainly is a real world example.

You're fourth paragraph is exactly what happened. You just admitted that a fully specced out project is a different case. Well, what do think I've been trying to get through all of your skulls for the last 20 posts?

What high end stuff are you under the impression we were trying to sell them?

Read some of the background or not, this is like butting heads with the Rain Man. What time is Wheel Of Fortune on?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Ooh... that really hurts coming from a guy who used to post 30-40 times a day when you were Texas_signmaker and now 20-30 times a day under your new identity.

Nice straw man argument and attempt at an insult.

Is that really the best you can Do?

Stick to the shallow end of the pool, son. I've seen your work and followed your schtick for enough years to know you're in no position to be judging anyone's use of their time.

In a previous job, I was a 911 Dispatcher.

Guess what we all can Do with ease?

Multi task AND type between 50-60 words per minute or more.

I hear your upset and my advise wasn't taken too kindly. Let me rephrase it, maybe you should look at how efficantly your competitors operate and see where you could use improvement. I'm sure we all could improve, just throwing out some friendly suggestions to a fellow sign maker...

 

[Gino]

Ya know, it's not nice to make fun of someone, let alone be the classroom tattletale. You think the rest of us are stupid and have no clue as to who we are, but yet, you tell us different stories all the time of you and your working career. Who cares ?? Go on, just puffing out your chest and we'll all listen while you rock yet another thread for your self-centered ambitions.

Here's one for ya, ya don't hafta know how to swim, to be a fantastic diving coach. You might try listening once in a while, instead of just spouting off your stuff, as you put it. Stuff, a technical term for................

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

I'm gonna start calling y'all the Kitchen Crew. You can dish it out, but as soon as somebody starts serving you some of your own food, y'all run straight out of the kitchen crying "foul!"

 

[Gino]

Well, I wouldn't be running in your direction...... not with your nimble fingers and nearly eating burritos off the floor. Yuck-O !!!!!

Again, how is it, you can call people names, point fingers, play tag with your amphibious helper and still say others are guilty ??

I've been judged and reprimanded and permitted back out with the regular population. I paid my dues, but like your buddy said, we simply hit a dislike button and you fly off the handle. I just don't understand this constant need to railroad other peoples' threads the way you two do. Ya can't remain focused or positive. Your negativity is starting to really show.