Sam Nitzberg
New Member
Yeah, I know all that. But it's tempting just the same.
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Cool Signs in Montgomery, TX, doesn't pay their bills
- Thread starter Sam Nitzberg
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Yeah, I know, but it ain't worth it.
Many years ago, I watched the Police going the other way as I left a guy who called them on me. They didn't see who I was and once I was gone, they couldn't prove I had been there. Needless to say, I got paid, by the help of the very Police who were gonna arrest me for taking, what I thought back then, to be mine. They advised him to pay me or set up some kinda payment terms, as they said, I'll probably come back at night and do it again. Without cameras and stuff, they wouldn't be able to prosecute me if I burned the signs.
ChicagoGraphics
New Member
A quote from there website "What sets Cool Signs apart from other sign companies is our commitment to our customer. We guarantee to have one of our highly trained and skilled project managers on site for every install no matter what the location, to insure the job is completed with the quality standards Cool Signs has been known for since 1995.
Doesn't seem like that's true at all!
I was always told that once a sign is installed, I'd have no right to go take it down from non payment. Maybe it differs from state to state, but I would go there at night and drape a banner over the sign and in big bold letters saying "covered due to non payment from cool signs" something along them lines.
I guarantee you will be paid almost instantly .
Doesn't seem like that's true at all!
I was always told that once a sign is installed, I'd have no right to go take it down from non payment. Maybe it differs from state to state, but I would go there at night and drape a banner over the sign and in big bold letters saying "covered due to non payment from cool signs" something along them lines.
I guarantee you will be paid almost instantly .
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Depending on the state, it is considered apart of the physical property. TN and AL consider it apart of the property.
Ironically, that's why in some jurisdictions you have to go after the landowner, who may or may not have been the actual person that commissioned the work for payment. They in turn would have to go after their tenant for reimbursement.
visual800
Active Member
How? There was no agreement between you and the building or landowner. The have no liabilities as to what their leasee does. I know folks dont agree with what I say BUT the OP is stuck. Maybe its time to add in your art dislaimenr you will remove signs if not paid for
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
They own the property and a sign is considered apart of the property depending on how it's mounted on said property, that's how.
T_K
New Member
If a company won't pay for a decent website, that might be a bad sign. Or maybe they didn't finish paying their web developer, so they got a "free upgrade".
Nope, just put you in jail for arson
I almost never agree with Gino, but I agree with him on this. Once the sign is on the wall, you don't own it unless you have some contract that says differently.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
I did work with Cool Signs last year a bunch of times making vinyl for Bassett. Last time I dealt with him it was VERY difficult getting his credit card numbers, I had to push.
James Burke
Being a grandpa is more fun than working
But hey...at least it looks as though your sign made it to the top of their portfolio page. Just sayin'.
JB
JB
CanuckSigns
Active Member
We had a contractor try to stiff us on an exterior sign job, multiple calls and emails went unanswered for 9 months. We had to get a lawyer involved, they sent a letter of Demand stating if the didn't pay us in 7 business days we would sue him in small claims court.
He ignored the letter so we went down to the courthouse and filed a claim, had a process server deliver it to them on a Monday morning, had a phone call from them by lunch time saying they are processing our cheque. We ended up getting our invoice plus legal fees plus Interest.
Not sure how it works in the states, but up here you would file in a court close to the county where the work was completed, which means they have to travel to you to defend themselves, often the cost of sending a lawyer out of state will cost more than the bill, so they just pay you.
He ignored the letter so we went down to the courthouse and filed a claim, had a process server deliver it to them on a Monday morning, had a phone call from them by lunch time saying they are processing our cheque. We ended up getting our invoice plus legal fees plus Interest.
Not sure how it works in the states, but up here you would file in a court close to the county where the work was completed, which means they have to travel to you to defend themselves, often the cost of sending a lawyer out of state will cost more than the bill, so they just pay you.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Ya know, Moze might be onto something. We could really make s101 work for us, if we all banded together on this.
For the most part, these companies do this because they know we're too far away to do anything, but with the membership here, I'm sure we can cover just about anywhere USA and Canada. If we contacted someone from here at s101, near their locallity, to go knock on their door, that would probably get them to pay and to stop using this procedure in the future. We could try setting up a kinda force, which outta the proceeds, they would be paid, if they got the scoundrels to pay. Sorta like a rewards system of Crime Watch. We'd hafta get some guidelines established, but I think its doable.
It wouldn't be connected to s101, so they wouldn't be liable, but we could use the connections to get this remedied.
This thing sadly....... happens too much in our business. Let's either start a new thread on this or ask for permission to put a committee together for this.
If it's not possible, from a legal stamdpoint, we can still just contact people, as long as we aren't overstepping our boundaries.
For the most part, these companies do this because they know we're too far away to do anything, but with the membership here, I'm sure we can cover just about anywhere USA and Canada. If we contacted someone from here at s101, near their locallity, to go knock on their door, that would probably get them to pay and to stop using this procedure in the future. We could try setting up a kinda force, which outta the proceeds, they would be paid, if they got the scoundrels to pay. Sorta like a rewards system of Crime Watch. We'd hafta get some guidelines established, but I think its doable.
It wouldn't be connected to s101, so they wouldn't be liable, but we could use the connections to get this remedied.
This thing sadly....... happens too much in our business. Let's either start a new thread on this or ask for permission to put a committee together for this.
If it's not possible, from a legal stamdpoint, we can still just contact people, as long as we aren't overstepping our boundaries.
ddarlak
Go Bills!
Let's start a signs101 version of a collections agency. You don't even have to be near the guy to participate. He isn't answering the phone for the OP, but he has to answer his phone to get business. He probably recognizes the phone number from the OP, but if he gets a flood of calls from signs101 members asking the same specific questions that would be legal and legit, the sheer magnitude of the calls could persuade the bum(s) to pay up.
for this "service", if and when the bum pays up, the recipient would donate 1% of the collections to a signs101 fund. this fund could be set up to do any type of charity the membership votes on. the monies would be dispersed once a year to voted on charities.
Kottwitz-Graphics
New Member
That could be done, but what if, Fred set up another forum section for members to post positive or negative reviews, and it could be searchable. That way if someone gets a call from an outfit from some other part of the country, the member could go to that forum, search that company, and members that have done work for them would have posted up info such as time to pay, accessibility, and other info that could be useful.
It wouldn't be instant, but after some time it could be pretty useful.
Of course, the only down side would be people could take out grudges against competitors, create fake account info, and try posting up false ratings to boost their creditability... so a way around it would be someone would have to have something, like say, 100 post count prior to posting to that forum... just an idea...
GaSouthpaw
Profane and profane accessories.
I'm with Gino on this. You can (and will, if you tell someone beforehand) end up being charged with a criminal act if you take the signs down.
SightLine
║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
There is one exception..... if the "sign" is on rented space and the owner or representative of that space also has an interest in getting paid.
I've had this exact scenario happen a couple of times over the years. We manage the bus advertising program for the city bus system here. Everything from setting the rates, negotiating deals, printing (if desired), install, takedown, creating the rate card and updating annually, collecting the ad space rentals, taking our cut, and sending on the rest to the bus system. 75% of the ad space bought is done through agencies and ad buyers who represent the end customer and they are buying space in cities all across the country. Agencies and ad buyers by the way are very often some of the most ruthless to deal with and very very often push paying out as far as they can push without being taken to court. They like to wait and pay for the space once they get paid and sit on the money for a while.... My thoughts are the buyer or agency is my customer and I don't really care when you get paid by your customer. Max I'm going to allow is Net 30. I've had it though where an agency or buyer contracts (for example) a 6 month run of king posters for some national chain. After two months the agency or buyer disappears. I have other places that want the space but its often sold out and contracted months in advance. In the couple of times its happened I do attempt as much as possible to contact the agency or buyer to get payment. When that fails I will make a last ditch effort to directly contact the actual advertiser and tell them if they want their signs/ads to stay up then they either need to pay us directly or get their agency/buyer to pay asap. Couple of times they paid us directly, once they said do what we have to do. We took their ads down immediately and rented the space to someone else.
So..... the idea is if you get into this situation and you know the customer does not own the building or space they are in then you might be able to make a deal with the owner of the property. In that case then the sign (while technically owned by the customer) is not on property owned by them and with some working with the owner of the property you could potentially have it so that the sign is now illegally on someone else's property and then you are simply taking it down on behalf of the owner of the property. Just as if someone were to park a vehicle in my parking lot (I own this property) without my permission. I don't care who owns the car, its here without my permission and I have every right to remove it or have it removed. There are of course other legalities in all of this in that cannot immediately consider it abandoned, etc and must store it for the owner to claim (and you can charge a storage and remove fee). Again though, many small legalities that would have to be considered that will vary depending on your local laws.
As far as go onto someone else's property and taking down a sign not paid for. Should be that as long as you have the permission of whoever owns the actual real estate or building to remove it then you legally can do so since they can dictate what can and cannot be on their property.
I've had this exact scenario happen a couple of times over the years. We manage the bus advertising program for the city bus system here. Everything from setting the rates, negotiating deals, printing (if desired), install, takedown, creating the rate card and updating annually, collecting the ad space rentals, taking our cut, and sending on the rest to the bus system. 75% of the ad space bought is done through agencies and ad buyers who represent the end customer and they are buying space in cities all across the country. Agencies and ad buyers by the way are very often some of the most ruthless to deal with and very very often push paying out as far as they can push without being taken to court. They like to wait and pay for the space once they get paid and sit on the money for a while.... My thoughts are the buyer or agency is my customer and I don't really care when you get paid by your customer. Max I'm going to allow is Net 30. I've had it though where an agency or buyer contracts (for example) a 6 month run of king posters for some national chain. After two months the agency or buyer disappears. I have other places that want the space but its often sold out and contracted months in advance. In the couple of times its happened I do attempt as much as possible to contact the agency or buyer to get payment. When that fails I will make a last ditch effort to directly contact the actual advertiser and tell them if they want their signs/ads to stay up then they either need to pay us directly or get their agency/buyer to pay asap. Couple of times they paid us directly, once they said do what we have to do. We took their ads down immediately and rented the space to someone else.
So..... the idea is if you get into this situation and you know the customer does not own the building or space they are in then you might be able to make a deal with the owner of the property. In that case then the sign (while technically owned by the customer) is not on property owned by them and with some working with the owner of the property you could potentially have it so that the sign is now illegally on someone else's property and then you are simply taking it down on behalf of the owner of the property. Just as if someone were to park a vehicle in my parking lot (I own this property) without my permission. I don't care who owns the car, its here without my permission and I have every right to remove it or have it removed. There are of course other legalities in all of this in that cannot immediately consider it abandoned, etc and must store it for the owner to claim (and you can charge a storage and remove fee). Again though, many small legalities that would have to be considered that will vary depending on your local laws.
As far as go onto someone else's property and taking down a sign not paid for. Should be that as long as you have the permission of whoever owns the actual real estate or building to remove it then you legally can do so since they can dictate what can and cannot be on their property.
Theres a few tough asses on the internet that will tell you different but sorry to say, In MD it is already considered part of the real property and thus, property of the building owner now if it has been installed. You wont be able to legally take it back down under the premise of a repossession. You can do it of course but you WILL be seen, you may be caught, and it may cost you dearly.
It always sure looks impressive, and I even do it myself, but any contract clauses or disclaimers that contradict any state, county, city laws aren't worth the paper they are printed on.. save your breath.
What you CAN still do is file for a mechanics lien for the value of your labor against the owners property. It will cost you time and money to do so and it is a very slow process and it may not even help you at all depending on the experience of the people you are dealing with. I have done it on my own without a lawyer near you in VA and DC but not in MD. If the lien is granted (aka perfected), then the owner will theoretically have to pay you to clear the title in the future if he ever wishes to refinance or sell. I say theoretically because an azz-tute owner can contact the contractor to pay or even opt to pay himself for a bond (for your stated value plus any interest) that will simply pay it off if and when they ever need it in the future to make you go away. Commercial banks and commercial property purchasers many times simply accept the bond with the property rather than paying you even at that future time.
Smartest plan of attack... be a nice guy. Hard for real humans to screw a nice guy. These may not be good people you are dealing with of course... business is risky. Contact them, tell them you are in a spot, you did your job and need the bill paid please. Contact the tenant, the tenants home office, and even building owner under the same premise.. a nice guy getting screwed.
Best of luck.
It always sure looks impressive, and I even do it myself, but any contract clauses or disclaimers that contradict any state, county, city laws aren't worth the paper they are printed on.. save your breath.
What you CAN still do is file for a mechanics lien for the value of your labor against the owners property. It will cost you time and money to do so and it is a very slow process and it may not even help you at all depending on the experience of the people you are dealing with. I have done it on my own without a lawyer near you in VA and DC but not in MD. If the lien is granted (aka perfected), then the owner will theoretically have to pay you to clear the title in the future if he ever wishes to refinance or sell. I say theoretically because an azz-tute owner can contact the contractor to pay or even opt to pay himself for a bond (for your stated value plus any interest) that will simply pay it off if and when they ever need it in the future to make you go away. Commercial banks and commercial property purchasers many times simply accept the bond with the property rather than paying you even at that future time.
Smartest plan of attack... be a nice guy. Hard for real humans to screw a nice guy. These may not be good people you are dealing with of course... business is risky. Contact them, tell them you are in a spot, you did your job and need the bill paid please. Contact the tenant, the tenants home office, and even building owner under the same premise.. a nice guy getting screwed.
Best of luck.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I've actually seen email signatures (and I'm sure it's reflected in their contract as well) that use the term "emergency repair" instead of repossession. TN (and a couple of other states that I'm aware of) requires you to actually use the term "repossession" in your clause, if you want that legal ability. They may allow for repossession (if certain conditions are met, can't do repossession right off the bat without certain other scenarios taking place), but have to have it spelled out as such.
Not that these folks probably care about a small claims judgement being set against them in a different state, but there are all sorts of debt collection agencies that do all the work for you for a minimal fee and once it goes to the credit reporting bureaus, you stand a better chance of getting their attention.