Discussion Copyright Issues

[Greg Kelm]

Belonging to a few community facebook pages, I come across the occasional request for someone to complete a print job that has some obvious copyright infringements (Disney themed birthday banner for example). Hate to turn money, and somebody out there will produce the job, but I'm afraid of getting busted someday for a few easy bucks. Is there any legal way to have the buyer/customer assume liability? A signed waiver that they have rights to the artwork perhaps?

 

[Gino]

You're saying it was just a kid's birthday banner...... with Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse on it ??

While by law you cannot do it without proper licensing, but for a little kid's birthday party, I would weigh my chances of getting caught on such a frivolous situation. Once in a great while, it's not too bad, but if you advertised doing it, then I'd say absolutely not.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Regardless of what one thinks of the current state of the US copyright, it's wrong plain and simple. Regardless of what little chance of getting caught.

Disney loves to flex their muscles on even the most questionable of cases.

To me, part of what we do, should be able to offer something custom. If they want to go rip something off, then like them wanting cheap low quality goods, have them go elsewhere.

Not the most popular opinion, but just my take on it.

 

[CanuckSigns]

It's not worth the money, even if you don't get caught. These types of clients are the ones who will waste your time and demand 30 free revisions on their $45 banner.

 

[bannertime]

Not worth it. Last time we dealt with one of these types they kept yelling at us to "just do it," before walking out the door yelling "why would anyone even come here if you're not going to print anything!" lol. That one is one of my favorites so far.

 

[GAC05]

Not worth it. Last time we dealt with one of these types they kept yelling at us to "just do it," before walking out the door yelling "why would anyone even come here if you're not going to print anything!" lol. That one is one of my favorites so far.

You should have yelled back:
"Can't!" - "just do it'™ belongs to Nike™

 

[ikarasu]

Hate turning away the customer... Or hate turning away money?

I'd just donate the banner to them. Legally its No different than selling it... But ethically we don't / woukdnt want to Proffitt off of copyrighted stuff.

Some 5 year old wants a iron man banner for his birthday and you're unable to buy it anywhere? We'll skirt the rules a little bit and donate it to them.

Now if you're asking how you can bypass copyright law to make some cash... You can't. The onus is on you to ensure they have legal authority to reproduce the image. Your just as Liable as the person your producing the image for... Signed form or not.

 

[Greg Kelm]

Hate turning away the customer... Or hate turning away money?

I'd just donate the banner to them. Legally its No different than selling it... But ethically we don't / woukdnt want to Proffitt off of copyrighted stuff.

Some 5 year old wants a iron man banner for his birthday and you're unable to buy it anywhere? We'll skirt the rules a little bit and donate it to them.

Now if you're asking how you can bypass copyright law to make some cash... You can't. The onus is on you to ensure they have legal authority to reproduce the image. Your just as Liable as the person your producing the image for... Signed form or not.

Yeah I don't like to turn away money, but agree with most people here, that it's just not worth it. I'm not even sure that you can replicate someone's work and give it away, much like you can't buy a dvd movie and show it to 50 people.

What about the not so obvious characters/brands? My father has probably never heard of these young generation companies like SUPREME or OBEY, what if someone were to present him with artwork and want stickers, banners, shirts, etc.? What's the best way to protect yourself in that situation?

 

[bannertime]

What's the best way to protect yourself in that situation?

We run every order through a mental process.

Is this person employed by, representing, or the individual that the job is referencing?
example: Is this Tina's Tuna ordering a banner for Tina's Tuna or maybe an individual ordering a banner for a friend?
The big one for us is people wanting Cowboy's products and if they don't work for them or represent them, then it's an easy "no."

Is there any content that is a logo or trademark that is not related to the organization or individual ordering?
example: Golf tournament sponsor signs, bar using Red Bull logos, etc.

Is there any content in the order that presents a negative appearance of another organization or individual?
example: Tina is ordering a banner to smear her new catfish dealing neighbor.
One time we had a lady that wanted to post a banner out in front of some guy's house that she said scammed her. And that the news was going to be involved, etc. No thanks.Could we have done it, sure, but I'm not getting into other people's drama.

Does the organization or individual have permission to use these?
A golf tournament typically does but a bar probably wouldn't.
An ice cream truck wanted me to make a menu of all the ice cream he sold. Realizing I couldn't get the images from the manufacture, I passed on that job.

These questions aren't a hard pass/fail. It's just a process to help determine a red flag. It doesn't take any time. You probably already do it subconsciously, but it's something we teach new employees to pay attention to.

In your example; If the person ordering didn't present themselves as working for SUPREME or OBEY, then we'd ask, do you work for them? "No." Do you represent them in some way? "No." Did you get the artwork from their marketing department? or Do you have the statement of authorization to use the artwork? "well, I just pulled it off their Instagram." Okay, unfortunately we can't make them until you can provide a statement from them allowing us to produce them for you.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Is this person employed by, representing, or the individual that the job is referencing?

Be careful here, they could still be employed with the company, but not have permission to go out and use whomever they want. Typically, there are contracts that corporate has with other people that may not be left up to the individual person/business (think franchisee here as an example).

 

[Gino]

We run every order through a mental process.

Is this person employed by, representing, or the individual that the job is referencing?
example: Is this Tina's Tuna ordering a banner for Tina's Tuna or maybe an individual ordering a banner for a friend?
The big one for us is people wanting Cowboy's products and if they don't work for them or represent them, then it's an easy "no."

Is there any content that is a logo or trademark that is not related to the organization or individual ordering?
example: Golf tournament sponsor signs, bar using Red Bull logos, etc.

Is there any content in the order that presents a negative appearance of another organization or individual?
example: Tina is ordering a banner to smear her new catfish dealing neighbor.
One time we had a lady that wanted to post a banner out in front of some guy's house that she said scammed her. And that the news was going to be involved, etc. No thanks.Could we have done it, sure, but I'm not getting into other people's drama.

Does the organization or individual have permission to use these?
A golf tournament typically does but a bar probably wouldn't.
An ice cream truck wanted me to make a menu of all the ice cream he sold. Realizing I couldn't get the images from the manufacture, I passed on that job.

These questions aren't a hard pass/fail. It's just a process to help determine a red flag. It doesn't take any time. You probably already do it subconsciously, but it's something we teach new employees to pay attention to.

In your example; If the person ordering didn't present themselves as working for SUPREME or OBEY, then we'd ask, do you work for them? "No." Do you represent them in some way? "No." Did you get the artwork from their marketing department? or Do you have the statement of authorization to use the artwork? "well, I just pulled it off their Instagram." Okay, unfortunately we can't make them until you can provide a statement from them allowing us to produce them for you.

Those are all well and good and actually, you usually don't even hafta ask those questions out loud. They're pretty much answered right up front with some common sense.

Anyway, I got the feeling he was talking about someone who contacted him to make a birthday banner for some 4 year old kid. Probably not gonna get any attention or make the 6 o'clock News, but sure would make some little kid happy and brighten his day. If this was anything remotely connected with a business, not a chance of being produced in our shop, nor should there be any question. There are some logo Nazis out there, but most of them won't be attending little Bobby's birthday party.

 

[bannertime]

Be careful here, they could still be employed with the company, but not have permission to go out and use whomever they want. Typically, there are contracts that corporate has with other people that may not be left up to the individual person/business (think franchisee here as an example).

Now that is typically one of the "not my problem" situations. In fact, we've actually gained customers this way. By providing a faster and cheaper method than their prior, contracted, vendor.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Now that is typically one of the "not my problem" situations. In fact, we've actually gained customers this way. By providing a faster and cheaper method than their prior, contracted, vendor.

I know a shop that was busted for doing that very thing.

It's easier for me to just say no and not worry about it at all.

 

[fozzie]

based on our experience, we dont touch copyright stuff with a 10' pole. about 10 years ago did a small job for free for best friend. basically, put an NFL team logo several places on his tailgate van.
while at a game tailgating, some guy came up, chit chatted with him, said he liked the graphics and wondered where he got them. friend told him.
about a week later, got the cease and desist letter with all the fines, etc from a law firm. long story, but we were able to end it there.
never again......

 

[JasonToledo]

Who started this thread, Disney?

 

[Bobby H]

I'd just donate the banner to them. Legally its No different than selling it... But ethically we don't / woukdnt want to Proffitt off of copyrighted stuff.

Whether one is being paid or not makes no difference. It's still unauthorized use of another firm's intellectual property. Disney has filed suit against businesses and even private individuals for painting Disney-owned characters on their property. Around 30 years ago I heard of one guy who painted Disney characters on his barn for his grand kids. Somehow Disney got wind of that and made the guy remove the artwork, despite it being a DIY job on his own private property. Day care centers seem to be a popular target. They've been hit around the country. In the early 2000's a local day care center here in my town was ordered by Disney to remove a mural on an exterior wall that featured cartoon gorilla characters from the animated Tarzan movie.

A throw-away banner featuring Disney characters for a kid's birthday party seems innocent enough. 10-15 years ago a sign shop could produce such a thing without the slightest bit of concern. It would all be under the radar, so to speak. Flash forward to today. The situation is very different.

Today almost everyone has a smart phone. They photograph the heck out of family events and take big group photos in front of things like birthday banners. Then they share it on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube and other outlets. Big companies like Disney have people who look for copyright and trademark violations. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney has a variant of facial recognition technology to sniff the web for images that look like the stuff it owns. Often it doesn't take long to find copyright and trademark violations within seconds using Google Image Search. Outdoor signs that feature unauthorized use of intellectual property will be seen and photographed by Google's Street View cars multiple times.

 

[Greg Kelm]

Who started this thread, Disney?

Not disney, just a new shop owner wanting to protect himself. My sister-in-law always finds these little jobs and I tell her NO because it's just not worth the penalty if caught. I'm try to build a web presence where we may never talk to a client, they just submit their artwork and it gets printed and shipped. There's a lot of red tape, gray areas, opinions and ethics in the print industry.

 

[sardocs]

When I get approached to do any infringy tasks, I have this on my wall to point at.

 

[unclebun]

It's copyright

 

[Jay Grooms]

Hard No.