Copyright question

[Andy D]

We all know, legally, you can't just print someone else's artwork/logo, without permission, to resell..

But two questions:

1. If someone brings you artwork to print, what's your legal responsibility to make sure they have
permission to have it printed

2. Let's say you just did a layout for the local Harley Davidson retailer that had the Harley Davidson logo in the design.
Being a certified retailer, they should have the right to use the logo in there advertising... but, you want to make an extra copy
to use as a display in your showroom, I have heard you can print pretty much print whatever you want for your own personal purpose or for display,
you just can’t make them to sell, or for actual advertisement... is this correct?

 

[reQ]

Yup, pretty much. But speaking about HD, not that long time ago they were going after people who do that... so i still would be really cautious.

 

[CanuckSigns]

when someone brings in artwork to be printed, I assume they have the correct permissions, with the exceptions of something obvious such as a logo for a large corporation, or a cartoon character. it's not my job to be the copyright police, if Joe's lawn care comes to me with their logo and it's not watermarked or obviously someone elses property, I run with it.

As for the Harley situation in your post, I think legally speaking you can't even use the Harley logo for a dealership without permission, there are certain rules and regulations that go with the Harley logo and corporate wants to make sure whatever you are printing is in compliance with their brand standards. as for using it as a display, again I think it's legally a no no, but who's gonna know?

 

[Solventinkjet]

I guess you could consider that printing an extra copy for your show room could be considered part of your portfolio which falls under the idea of fair use. But then again, if a lawyer comes in and tells you to take it down, there isn't much in it for you to fight it.

 

[decalman]

Yea, Harley is nuts. They don't mess around. I refuse to cut them. They are aggressive in their logo protection, as can be.
Who needs their aggravation.

 

[Andy D]

Yup, pretty much. But speaking about HD, not that long time ago they were going after people who do that... so i still would be really cautious.

Thanks, but more a random question.. we had a debate here about that, in our showroom we have many sign samples, with logo's, of signs we have done in the past...
We were debating whether that, strictly legally speaking, was within the rule of the law... I think we're totally allowed to show samples of previous works, just as everyone here
has pictures of logos and artworks of their previous works on their website....

 

[WildWestDesigns]

In my non legal opinion, permission needs to come from corporate. Otherwise, each one of those stores can go in their own direction that's counter to what the headquarters wants and headquarters is where ownership is of the brand etc.

For instances, for embroidery (yes I know I went there), John Deere only has 4 licensed embroidery shops that do their work (last time I did research on this anyway). All legit John Deere work goes through them. If I have the local store #666 come to me, it's usually because they want to see about getting things cheaper. Sometimes, they don't know or don't think about it, but most of the time it's because they are wanting cheaper.

I've dealt with national companies and getting permission from corporate even on digitizing and everything is already spelled out. Size, colors etc. If all that stuff is spelled out clearly, I really doubt that they would let the individual stores do their own thing.

But again, that is in my non legal, very risk adverse opinion.

 

[reQ]

Thanks, but more a random question.. we had a debate here about that, in our showroom we have many sign samples, with logo's, of signs we have done in the past...
We were debating whether that, strictly legally speaking, was within the rule of the law... I think we're totally allowed to show samples of previous works, just as everyone here
has pictures of logos and artworks of their previous works on their website....

Personally, i don't think you should expect any problems i would not worry about it, just HD part (as mentioned before - they are not that nice lol)

 

[Andy D]

when someone brings in artwork to be printed, I assume they have the correct permissions, with the exceptions of something obvious such as a logo for a large corporation, or a cartoon character. it's not my job to be the copyright police, if Joe's lawn care comes to me with their logo and it's not watermarked or obviously someone elses property, I run with it.

As for the Harley situation in your post, I think legally speaking you can't even use the Harley logo for a dealership without permission, there are certain rules and regulations that go with the Harley logo and corporate wants to make sure whatever you are printing is in compliance with their brand standards. as for using it as a display, again I think it's legally a no no, but who's gonna know?

That's what I was wondering... but if you post a picture of a sign that has the HD logo on your website.. isn't that the same thing?

 

[Andy D]

In my non legal opinion, permission needs to come from corporate. Otherwise, each one of those stores can go in their own direction that's counter to what the headquarters wants and headquarters is where ownership is of the brand etc.

For instances, for embroidery (yes I know I went there), John Deere only has 4 licensed embroidery shops that do their work (last time I did research on this anyway). All legit John Deere work goes through them. If I have the local store #666 come to me, it's usually because they want to see about getting things cheaper. Sometimes, they don't know or don't think about it, but most of the time it's because they are wanting cheaper.

I've dealt with national companies and getting permission from corporate even on digitizing and everything is already spelled out. Size, colors etc. If all that stuff is spelled out clearly, I really doubt that they would let the individual stores do their own thing.

But again, that is in my non legal, very risk adverse opinion.

Good info, but what is your legal obligation not to reproduce a logo they provided... even if you know they don't have permission?

And to be 100% clear, this is just one of those questions that popped into my head on my way to work.. and we start debating it here.. and I thought one of you might know more about it.

 

[Gino]

Most of the time, you need to have written permission from corporate to duplicate or print logos..... especially big name ones. Anyone who thinks it's not their job to do the legwork is sadly mistaken. It's the person who pushes the print button who is committing the wrongdoing. Just did one for metroPCS and I told the guy I needed written proof from corporate, not his silly sayso. He got livid. Two months later, I got a call from him with all the specs and a written authorization from corporate to proceed. Dairy Queen, Grocery store chains, Disney, HD, most sports and beer companies all need it.

Go on doing whatever your head is telling you, but please don't ruin it for others by knowingly telling them falsehoods.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Good info, but what is your legal obligation not to reproduce a logo they provided... even if you know they don't have permission?

And to be 100% clear, this is just one of those questions that popped into my head on my way to work.. and we start debating it here.. and I thought one of you might know more about it.

Bare in mind, there is a thing called "contributory infringement".

That's what I would be more concerned about compared to direct infringement that most of us think about.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Seems to me that displaying a well known logo in your showroom. even if produced legally, is going to get you requests to produce it from random visitors to your showroom. Then you have to explain to each of them that they aren't authorized to have it made by you.

 

[Andy D]

Go on doing whatever your head is telling you, but please don't ruin it for others by knowingly telling them falsehoods.

Me? If so, I'm not telling anybody anything... that's why I purposely said "I was told" "I think" "correct?"
How else does someone verify something they heard, without actually stating what it is that they heard?

Edited to say, Gino let me know that he didn't mean me, sorry Gino.

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

Completely untrue.

The second you make a copy, for sale or even personal use, you are in violation.

Thats what COPYRIGHT is, protect from unauthorized copies of your work being made.

Check out this page from Brad Templeton, he clears up a lot of common misconceptions/misunderstandings

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

 

[OldPaint]

fred is right o this one........as i agree with his take. WHY WOULD YOU want you display work that you CANT DO???
AS FOR DOING COPY WRITTEN LOGOS........you can do any of them............as long it is used to represent that company.
i did little league baseball/football field signs for many years. these are how the teams make money for for the equipment for the kids. they get business to give money as a donation, in return the business gets a SIGN at the ball field with their name on it.i did these for way less then i would charge someone who walked in the door asking for the same size sign. kinda like this the little league gets a $100 sponsor, i do the sign for $50(guy of the street woulda paid $120) the little league gets $50. kinda doing something for the kids.......but not giving your work away.
many of the sponsors were MCDONALDS, BURGER KING, WENDY'S, HD, OLIVE GARDEN, PIZZA HUT, TACO BELL, FORD, CHEVY, BUICK, CADDY, and all requested their LOGO on the sign. many signs were just text but i did all those logos..........AS LONG AS THEY WERE ASKED FOR BY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THAT BUSINESS.
over my years of doing this(iam 70)i have done many a logo on stock cars.........same way......back when you painted them on.
now i will tell ya........DISNEY, WARNER BROS, HANNA BARBAR(FLINTSTONES) are like harley........when it comes to their copywrite products))))as for doing stuff for yourself........take your chances, iam a livid STEELER FAN.......my truck has STEELERS on 3 side and the logos........which you cant buy anywhere(at the size i have them)but iam in pensacola.not PITTSBURGH.

 

[Andy D]

Okay, I think this is an important distinction because most of us have
our designs or pictures of signs we made in a portfolio for our clients to look through
or on our websites, and some are of logos and-or art we don't own... and I don't why this
would also include a display in your showroom..

These are two excerpts from the Graphics artist guild, one is a lawyer. They both go on to make some conflicting statements though

[h=1]Can I Show My Work in My Portfolio When I Don’t Own the Rights Anymore?[/h]by Lisa Shaftel
Yes. You may display your work in your portfolio-including a portfolio Web-site under the doctrine of “fair use,” as long as:

1. you are not selling reproductions of the work;
2. you have credited the rights holder; and
3. you are not violating any non-disclosure agreement with the rights holder.

It’s a good idea to include a clause in your contracts stating that the client grants you permission to display your work in your portfolio.
A recent lawsuit regarding Grateful Dead posters and “fair use” can be interpreted in the same way we use images in our portfolios.



[h=1]Fair Use or Infringement?[/h]by Linda Joy Kattwinkel, Esq.


Q. I am Senior Designer at a small publishing company in San Francisco where I design all in-house advertising materials for clients and sponsors. I realize that the rights to all work I complete on the job belong to my employer, and in some cases the clients that hire us for services. But is it okay to use some of these pieces in my portfolio? And more specifically, my online portfolio site? What about designs I completed at previous employment sites (ad agencies, etc.)? Would it be acceptable to use some of the designs as examples of previous work when applying as an independent contractor for a temp agency?

A. This is a relatively easy question. Most copyright lawyers, myself included, believe that reproducing your own work in your portfolio (whether in print or online) is fair use, regardless of who owns the copyright. As a practical matter, showing your work in your portfolio is a common and accepted practice in the design field, and the copyright owners rarely object.
The most persuasive fair use factors in this situation are
(1) the purpose and character of your use and
(4) the effect on the potential market for the original work.
The “purpose and character” of portfolio usage is to accurately document your work and thereby promote your services as a commercial artist. It could be argued that self-promotion is “commercial” use because your ultimate goal is to generate more design assignments. However, that is not the type of profit making that weighs against fair use. You would not be making money directly from reselling the portfolio piece; rather you would be paid for the new design that you create for the new assignment.

 

[Andy D]

I have done golf tournament signage, that literally had several hundreds of logos,
How is it even possible to get written permission for all of them?

 

[J Hill Designs]

I have done golf tournament signage, that literally had several hundreds of logos,
How is it even possible to get written permission for all of them?

uh those would be sponsorship logo's, so of course permission was given at time of sponsorship

 

[Andy D]

uh those would be sponsorship logo's, so of course permission was given at time of sponsorship

I doubt the local managers / franchise owners, that agreed to sponsor a local event are authorized to give permission
for the use of a corporate logo...same when they order their signs..Right?