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Cost of ink per sqft? HP Latex 800

Kemble

New Member
We have (2) HP Latex 800 printers. I know what my cost is to purchase all the Inks at 3L per box, but I don't know how much sqft coverage (on average coverage) we get. I'm trying to figure out how much I should charge for ink per sq/ft for an average coverage for vehicle wraps at 12 pass printing. Can anyone provide any useful information to get me started?

Thanks
 

Solventinkjet

DIY Printer Fixing Guide
Check your RIP's manual. A lot of RIPs have ink usage counters per job that will give you a good idea. In general the number people have used for Solvent is about 35 cents per square foot. Not sure how comparable latex is though.
 
We have (2) HP Latex 800 printers. I know what my cost is to purchase all the Inks at 3L per box, but I don't know how much sqft coverage (on average coverage) we get. I'm trying to figure out how much I should charge for ink per sq/ft for an average coverage for vehicle wraps at 12 pass printing. Can anyone provide any useful information to get me started?

Thanks
As mentioned, you should have a PrintOS account that provides data for both printers. The Print Beat / PrintOS 4 PSP mobile app can provide very accurate ink consumption data about each print job, as well as aggregated totals for the printer life. For wraps that are being laminated, it is recommended to turn off the overcoat ink. Doing this saves ink, and allows for a more aggressive bond between the ink and laminate film.
 
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Kemble

New Member
Thanks !! I got access to PrintOS and found the ink consumption for each job. Over the last 10 jobs were at $0.092 sq/ft. This is exactly what I was looking for.

OH !!! So I can turn off the overcoat on everything were laminating? or just wraps?
 

balstestrat

Problem Solver
Overcoat should always be off if laminating.

Maybe in some cases if you need more scratch resistance during production before lamination you might want to keep it.
 

Ahmed Samy Nagada

New Member
Based on last period printing POS signs, 3918 square meters consumed 51.5 liters without over coat. That is 13.14 ml per square meter.
Latex.png
 

Kemble

New Member
just a silly question...you guys bought 2 HP800s and your reseller did not show you guys the app for them and how to get help and profiles?
Valid question... So our graphics department is its own company. It is owned by a much larger Fortune 500 company. To make a long story short, poor previous management lead to the larger company going through a restructure and eliminate/replace most everyone in the department. I was brought in to manage & rebuild the graphics department. I have 20 years management, 10 years offset printing, a handful of years window tinting and paint protection installation, and 17 years of just solid color vinyl decal experience. I personally own a Mutoh 48" Valujet that I purchased about 13 years ago that I dabbled with banners for about 5 years before it broke on me and I never fixed because I quite frankly didn't have the volume to fix it, so I changed direction with my own business. I have a basic understanding of the wide format printing industry and am super excited to get back into it, I know I have A LOT to learn. My current team is solid, has a great attitude and everyone is on the same page and wants to learn & grow. We have 3 wrap installers that are really good and 1 in training. Our 2 graphic artists are really good designers with limited knowledge of the printing side of things. Our 2 production girls, who do all the printing/cutting/masking, both had zero experience before being hired 4 months ago, they have learned a lot and are very eager to learn more. I have 1 sales guy who is a rock star at selling graphics/wraps with 7yrs exp. Our 2 HP printers were installed 6 months ago and have been nothing but problems. Apparently, after several months of tech visits, they determined that we received 2 of their known bad manufactured printers. One of them was replaced already and the 2nd replacement is here and being installed on Tuesday. IF the HP tech did teach/tell us about the app and how to set up profiles initially, then that knowledge left when the old employees left. I will be making sure the tech that comes to install the 2nd replacement printer on Tuesday teach me and our 2 production girls how to use them. I'm learning as much as I can each and every day with lots of research inside and outside of work hours. It's kind of sad/embarrassing the amount of machines/material that we have at our disposal but lack the knowledge of how to use it all. We are all here eager to learn, we just need some direction.

Our biggest problem right now is color matching & consistency. Customer provides us with their company branded color and we just can't seem to hit it (or spend 4-5 hours trying to). Even solid color panels have varying shades from the left side to the right side of the material when we line up 2 panels side by side. In theory, if we have 2 identical printers printing the same exact file, they should print exactly the same or damn well close enough to each other so that we can use both HP Latex 800 printers to print a vehicle wrap and have the colors line up. The amount of material and labor we are wasting on every job right now is embarrassing and needs to get corrected ASAP. If we can stick to ONYX and get things corrected and dialed in, then I'm all for it.
 

Humble PM

If I'm lucky, one day I'll be a Eudyptula minor
If Tuesday doesn't get you the info/training you need, might be worth dropping an email to Scott Martin to bring in some expert setup and training.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Valid question... So our graphics department is its own company. It is owned by a much larger Fortune 500 company. To make a long story short, poor previous management lead to the larger company going through a restructure and eliminate/replace most everyone in the department. I was brought in to manage & rebuild the graphics department. I have 20 years management, 10 years offset printing, a handful of years window tinting and paint protection installation, and 17 years of just solid color vinyl decal experience. I personally own a Mutoh 48" Valujet that I purchased about 13 years ago that I dabbled with banners for about 5 years before it broke on me and I never fixed because I quite frankly didn't have the volume to fix it, so I changed direction with my own business. I have a basic understanding of the wide format printing industry and am super excited to get back into it, I know I have A LOT to learn. My current team is solid, has a great attitude and everyone is on the same page and wants to learn & grow. We have 3 wrap installers that are really good and 1 in training. Our 2 graphic artists are really good designers with limited knowledge of the printing side of things. Our 2 production girls, who do all the printing/cutting/masking, both had zero experience before being hired 4 months ago, they have learned a lot and are very eager to learn more. I have 1 sales guy who is a rock star at selling graphics/wraps with 7yrs exp. Our 2 HP printers were installed 6 months ago and have been nothing but problems. Apparently, after several months of tech visits, they determined that we received 2 of their known bad manufactured printers. One of them was replaced already and the 2nd replacement is here and being installed on Tuesday. IF the HP tech did teach/tell us about the app and how to set up profiles initially, then that knowledge left when the old employees left. I will be making sure the tech that comes to install the 2nd replacement printer on Tuesday teach me and our 2 production girls how to use them. I'm learning as much as I can each and every day with lots of research inside and outside of work hours. It's kind of sad/embarrassing the amount of machines/material that we have at our disposal but lack the knowledge of how to use it all. We are all here eager to learn, we just need some direction.

Our biggest problem right now is color matching & consistency. Customer provides us with their company branded color and we just can't seem to hit it (or spend 4-5 hours trying to). Even solid color panels have varying shades from the left side to the right side of the material when we line up 2 panels side by side. In theory, if we have 2 identical printers printing the same exact file, they should print exactly the same or damn well close enough to each other so that we can use both HP Latex 800 printers to print a vehicle wrap and have the colors line up. The amount of material and labor we are wasting on every job right now is embarrassing and needs to get corrected ASAP. If we can stick to ONYX and get things corrected and dialed in, then I'm all for it.
Have you done color calibration on both printers?

I'd start over and do a full color calibration / profile. They should both be pretty dang close to eachother after that.
 

Splash0321

Professional Amateur
The color inconsistency is a common problem when printing larger areas of solid colors. I never got it worked out well enough to feel confident selling certain jobs.

HP took my first 700w back and supposedly replaced it with a new one that had all the upgrades. After about a month it started giving me the same problems and the service tech opened up the printer today to replace some parts and said it still has all of the old components.

HP dropped the ball with these 700/800s. Perhaps 6 more months of R&D would have saved the 700/800 customers these problems. I guess trying to beat the epson resin to market was their highest priority.
 

Neila Printing

New Member
You have to remember those aren't actual costs per square foot because they don't account for waste ink/cleaning, unless you are just considering that in your equipment cost. Not all of that ink box you buy is going on material a good part of it is being thrown out
 

balstestrat

Problem Solver
You have to remember those aren't actual costs per square foot because they don't account for waste ink/cleaning, unless you are just considering that in your equipment cost. Not all of that ink box you buy is going on material a good part of it is being thrown out
Actually HP will also count the servicing. If I remember correctly it will be accounted always on the next job.

And I actually checked few jobs I had done and the first one of the day has higher consumption so I think I remember it correctly.
 

jsshapiro

New Member
I'm reading this thread with great interest, because these costs don't match what we're seeing. We do a lot of prints that are exactly six square feet in an 8 pass mode. When I connect to the printer and look at the job accounting log, most - of these jobs come in around 1ml - 1.2ml of ink per square foot, which is consistent with our costing model. But then there are jobs that are closer to 3ml per square. Long term average across everything seems to be running about 1.36ml per square foot.

The weird part is that all of these jobs are the same size and the same amount of ink cover. It doesn't make sense to me that we're seeing this much variation unless the outliers are getting maintenance activity or something like that tacked on to them. There is also greater ink consumption when a job errors out - I'm guessing there's a head cleaning there or some such.

So I'm puzzled. Does anybody out there have an understanding of what is going on they'd care to share? We can't model costs very well without a better understanding of where the ink is going.

Thanks!
 

jsshapiro

New Member
Oh! Somebody above said "check what the RIP says". The latex printers have on-board RIPs. All of the RIPs out there, from ErgoSoft or Caldera all the way up to EFI's Fiery XF, handle this family of printers by letting the printer do the color management. Because it isn't handling color or transforming the image, your rip has very little idea how much ink the printer is using. The on-board accounting log is a better guide to consumption provided you are printing in some volume. If you're only using it once in a while, the maintenance activity ink consumption becomes a significant part of the total, and it throws off the reported consumption for the actual jobs quite a bit.
 

balstestrat

Problem Solver
I'm reading this thread with great interest, because these costs don't match what we're seeing. We do a lot of prints that are exactly six square feet in an 8 pass mode. When I connect to the printer and look at the job accounting log, most - of these jobs come in around 1ml - 1.2ml of ink per square foot, which is consistent with our costing model. But then there are jobs that are closer to 3ml per square. Long term average across everything seems to be running about 1.36ml per square foot.

The weird part is that all of these jobs are the same size and the same amount of ink cover. It doesn't make sense to me that we're seeing this much variation unless the outliers are getting maintenance activity or something like that tacked on to them. There is also greater ink consumption when a job errors out - I'm guessing there's a head cleaning there or some such.

So I'm puzzled. Does anybody out there have an understanding of what is going on they'd care to share? We can't model costs very well without a better understanding of where the ink is going.

Thanks!
Take a few screenshots, let see the log. Maybe it will shine some light on it.
Include the services and maintenances.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Doesnt the cleanings get tacked onto the next job? IE: If it ran 5 cleanings overnight and you printed 1 SQFT of material, it'd show way more ink than if you printed that 1 SQFT again right after?

So first print of the day will always cost more - If it runs a cleaning between printing due to clogged nozzles or something, that should also increase the costing. It'd be nice if HP broke it down in their costing sheet... but ah well, ink is such a small price when you compare it to the rest of the job, unless you're going to thousands and thousands in ink a month, so I see why they didnt spend too much time on their costing.
 
Doesnt the cleanings get tacked onto the next job? IE: If it ran 5 cleanings overnight and you printed 1 SQFT of material, it'd show way more ink than if you printed that 1 SQFT again right after?

So first print of the day will always cost more - If it runs a cleaning between printing due to clogged nozzles or something, that should also increase the costing. It'd be nice if HP broke it down in their costing sheet... but ah well, ink is such a small price when you compare it to the rest of the job, unless you're going to thousands and thousands in ink a month, so I see why they didnt spend too much time on their costing.
Your understanding is spot-on.

USA street price of the Latex 800 ink is 10.5 cents per ml ($315 for 3-liters), all colors - including white ink).
 
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