Deciding Between Industrial CNC and ShopSabre

[JBHorseStandards]

Hi Everyone,
We manufacture custom equestrian equipment, especially branded jumps for sponsorships at professional shows. We spent $20k last year in outsourcing our CNC work to a local shop, but I want to bring that in-house. We were charged $135 an hour of machine-time before, but he has raised it to $150/hr. We are getting busier and we are wasting money on outsourcing.

I need a 4x8' table, but it needs to able to "tile", or step workpieces a couple feet down after the first cut, so I can cut larger pieces 4x10', 4x12', etc. We probably cut a 3-4 hours a week through 0.75" thick marine plywood (cuts just like regular plywood) and 0.5" thick solid PVC sheets. After purchasing, however, we will probably increase our machine-time and cut 6-8 hours a week.

I am trying to decide between the Industrial CNC Artisan 408 ($24k) or the ShopSabre RC-8 ($33k).

The Industrial CNC guy acted like I had to purchase immediately or they might not have one in stock for me, which I did not appreciate the sales technique. They did have good financing thought.

The ShopSabre guy seemed real cool, like he didn't care one way or the other because he knew his machines were solid. Got a good vibe and I can respect the confidence. I am waiting to hear back about financing.

What are everyone's thoughts on these machines and companies?

Thank you in advance. I am an obvious novice on the machines and grateful for your feedback.

- Jonathan, JB Horse Standards

 

[SignEST]

Consider the dust mitigation and hold down solutions such as a vacuum pump. Electrical upgrade of some sort is probably in store. What might take that $150/h guy 3-4 hours could possibly take you 8-16. It's not an arduous task to run one after it's all set up and done.
At 33k USD you could add extra 3 for Axyz Innovator series with a proper spindle and tool changer option. Possibly an entry level Multicam. I'm sure the bigger CNC companies like Multicam or Axyz would be interested in financing.

It's tedious to manually swap tools between the carving and cutting tool. It also means you have to write seperate programs or pause it in the right spot.

Both those machines are hobby level at a relatively high cost. If you have to choose between the 2.

Whichever company offers the best support after you buy their hyped up golden turd.

 

[JBHorseStandards]

SignEST,

Thanks for your message. Both setups include dust collection attachments, vacuum hold down tables & pumps, and tech support.

I am open to other brands at different price points, but I don't want to get more than we will need.

Also, my other guy will be retiring in a few months, so beyond the cost, I don't really want to find another machinist.

Thank you for your feedback. I will look into Multicam and AXYZ.

 

[Gino]

$135 up to $150 is nothing, in today's world. Why not just pass your costs onto YOUR customers ??

Buying right away is very normal also today with costs going up and up every other day, he needs to know. I used to quote based upon what we paid for things. Today, I must call the vendors on almost everything to be sure I'm not screwing myself.

Your amount of time using this table does not warrant bringing that sh!t in-house full time, even if it is low end equipment. You won't even be using it on a part-time scale. Do you know anyone who knows that kinda software and how to run one of those things ?? It's not gonna be an overnight learning curve.

 

[JBHorseStandards]

$135 up to $150 is nothing, in today's world. Why not just pass your costs onto YOUR customers ??

Buying right away is very normal also today with costs going up and up every other day, he needs to know. I used to quote based upon what we paid for things. Today, I must call the vendors on almost everything to be sure I'm not screwing myself.

Your amount of time using this table does not warrant bringing that sh!t in-house full time, even if it is low end equipment. You won't even be using it on a part-time scale. Do you know anyone who knows that kinda software and how to run one of those things ?? It's not gonna be an overnight learning curve.

Thanks for your message.

We do forward the costs on to our client's but the work is often very custom and the CNC work is the largest cost, next to materials.

My CNC router is retiring in a few months and I don't want to find another, if I can help it. There are projects we haven't attempted because we can't afford the machine-time, so I was looking forward to being able to expand our products with more cost-effective CNC work, plus having a bigger margin on our custom products, which is our least profitable side of our business currently.

I could see running the new machine a couple days a week all day.

I have a few friends with large tables and they love them. Different types. I feel like I've needed one for a while.

 

[Gino]

So........ why not visit your friends and ask them for some pricing and see how affordable they might be ?? If they can't do your type of work, maybe there's more to it. Then, ask them for their insight to these machines and get it directly from friends. People here are either gonna be emotional about what they use or be on a more professional level than what you sound like.

I just don't understand having friends, (plural) and not turning to them ??

 

[White Haus]

I just don't understand having friends, (plural) and not turning to them ??

Not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with sign-making or a sign company.......................but I guess anything goes around here these days.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I think that you are really underestimating the time for file prep, setup, tweaks etc. $20k isn't really much money either.

 

[Gino]

Not to mention that this has absolutely nothing to do with sign-making or a sign company.......................but I guess anything goes around here these days.

Well, I'm trying not to p!ss new members off with the obvious, since so many of the rules and policies have changed, so I don't wanna step over the boundary lines. It really amounts to another person trying to cut yet another signshop outta the picture by coming to a professional sign forum, not for profesional sign people. There's no end to this bullsh!t lately.

 

[Bxtr]

Hi Everyone,
We manufacture custom equestrian equipment, especially branded jumps for sponsorships at professional shows. We spent $20k last year in outsourcing our CNC work to a local shop, but I want to bring that in-house. We were charged $135 an hour of machine-time before, but he has raised it to $150/hr. We are getting busier and we are wasting money on outsourcing.

I need a 4x8' table, but it needs to able to "tile", or step workpieces a couple feet down after the first cut, so I can cut larger pieces 4x10', 4x12', etc. We probably cut a 3-4 hours a week through 0.75" thick marine plywood (cuts just like regular plywood) and 0.5" thick solid PVC sheets. After purchasing, however, we will probably increase our machine-time and cut 6-8 hours a week.

I am trying to decide between the Industrial CNC Artisan 408 ($24k) or the ShopSabre RC-8 ($33k).

The Industrial CNC guy acted like I had to purchase immediately or they might not have one in stock for me, which I did not appreciate the sales technique. They did have good financing thought.

The ShopSabre guy seemed real cool, like he didn't care one way or the other because he knew his machines were solid. Got a good vibe and I can respect the confidence. I am waiting to hear back about financing.

What are everyone's thoughts on these machines and companies?

Thank you in advance. I am an obvious novice on the machines and grateful for your feedback.

- Jonathan, JB Horse Standards

Hello Jonathan,

We currently have a base model Multicam 1000 series, it's a tank. But when we need service, it's been crickets. They were recently bought out so the service has been better.
I have explored the ShopSabre, and we are pretty sold on it. It has lifetime phone support and you are talking to people who just don't man the phones but are hands on building the machinery.
Bringing this in house for you will be nice not only cost wise but you will be able to control your timelines and not wait on others schedules. It is a big expense but these thing are made to run all day.
Plus you could use it as a source of revenue by offering services to other equestrian companies or expand into other markets.
I don't know where your located but one of the reasons we are leaning towards ShopSabre is they are less than four hours from us.

I hope this helps.

 

[fixtureman]

I would also look at a ATC spindle and a bigger table. I never heard anyone say I wish I would have gotten a smaller table. You can cut small stuff on a large table but it is a hassle to cut large stuff on a small table

 

[John Miller]

JB, I feel your idea of bringing CNC capabilities to your company is a wise decision. We added a 5x10 table 12 years ago and have never regretted it. My advice is:
1) Automatic tool changer
2) over kill on the spindle, more power is better
3) Consider a 10’ or 12’ table, won’t add much$

For the money you state, 24-33k you are definitely in the low end price scale. I know nothing about Artisan but Shop Saber is a very solid machine. Good luck.

 

[ikarasu]

Thanks for your message.

We do forward the costs on to our client's but the work is often very custom and the CNC work is the largest cost, next to materials.

My CNC router is retiring in a few months and I don't want to find another, if I can help it. There are projects we haven't attempted because we can't afford the machine-time, so I was looking forward to being able to expand our products with more cost-effective CNC work, plus having a bigger margin on our custom products, which is our least profitable side of our business currently.

I could see running the new machine a couple days a week all day.

I have a few friends with large tables and they love them. Different types. I feel like I've needed one for a while.

If your Current CNC guy is retiring, why not talk to him about buying the equipment? Pay him a consult fee to show you how to use it as well.

Running a CNC, especially if you're doing 3d work in wood, isn't the easiest thing. And no matter how good of a dust collector you have, there will be dust EVERYWHERE, so keep that in mind when you're finding an area to put it.

 

[GaSouthpaw]

JB, I feel your idea of bringing CNC capabilities to your company is a wise decision. We added a 5x10 table 12 years ago and have never regretted it. My advice is:
1) Automatic tool changer
2) over kill on the spindle, more power is better
3) Consider a 10’ or 12’ table, won’t add much$

For the money you state, 24-33k you are definitely in the low end price scale. I know nothing about Artisan but Shop Saber is a very solid machine. Good luck.

^^^ Everything here is good advice. From every time I've ever been in the market, the tool changer is the item that adds the most to the price, whereas a longer (or wider) table doesn't add nearly as much.
Personally, unless I was working exclusively with 4'x8' sheets, I'd get a 5' x 12'.

If your Current CNC guy is retiring, why not talk to him about buying the equipment? Pay him a consult fee to show you how to use it as well.

Running a CNC, especially if you're doing 3d work in wood, isn't the easiest thing. And no matter how good of a dust collector you have, there will be dust EVERYWHERE, so keep that in mind when you're finding an area to put it.

This is another great idea, as long as the equipment is well maintained, and doesn't have too much wear on it. The other bonus would be that- if you have a good relationship with the folks, you have someone who might be able to give you some tutelage in file set up, cutting, maintenance, etc.

 

[Scootershooter]

If your Current CNC guy is retiring, why not talk to him about buying the equipment? Pay him a consult fee to show you how to use it as well.

Running a CNC, especially if you're doing 3d work in wood, isn't the easiest thing. And no matter how good of a dust collector you have, there will be dust EVERYWHERE, so keep that in mind when you're finding an area to put it.

Sounds like an obvious solution.