Need Help Die-cutting labels and stickers

[ikarasu]

I've had a few people messaging and asking about Perf cutting on the graphtec... I get it, the company I worked for went 10+ years not realizing it can perf cut... Now we perf cut almost everything, it makes life so much easier. I made a few videos so people can see how it is. This is on my home machine - We do it at work as a roll to roll on our FC9000... then we move the roll, half roll, or whatever we cut onto the laminator... unwind it on a 4x8 table, and most of the time you can just snap 8 FT of vinyl up and back down on the table and everything falls out

this is perf cutting without using a cut line pattern... So it just cuts all the way through. For smaller stuff (Under 6") It works fine, if it's something bigger like 12" You want to turn on a cutting pattern so it doesnt bend and fall out. For squares or rectangles... I set it up to do all the horizontal cuts first, then it comes back and does all the verticals... it cuts faster, and the sharp corners dont get bent this way.

Video of the machine cutting

Video of how the edges look. It's not too complicated of a cut... but you can see it's got tons of curves.

- heres a video of me just popping a few out. I tried to do it while it was cutting, but holding my phone while recording and popping out with one hand was a pain.

I switch my blades every 2 weeks - They last a lot longer than that... but I pay like .60 a blade, so I'd rather keep it perfectly sharp than find out I forgot to change it and spend an hour fighting with popping them out. I also have a blade holder pre-set for the three materials I use all the time, since it costs like $5 a blade holder.

You can keep the blade in the channel slot and do kiss cut as well...so if you want to kiss and perf cut, you dont need to change the blade. I've done it quite a few times... I know thats everyone's biggest complaint about graphtec... It doesnt bother me, so I just swap to my good blade just incase.


Anyways... Nothing against Summa either! I'm just not as familiar with how they work. I cant imagine perf cutting being any easier than how we do it on our graphtec, but who knows... Maybe summa does it just as good and convenient! I've been looking at getting one of their flatbed finishers for awhile... so I dont have any Bias towards one or the other, besides the fact I'm used to graphtec! Before the 9000 came out, we were looking at summa because it reads reflective better and could handle latex properly. If the 9000 didnt come out the day it did, we'd have a summa as well.

 

[martinow]

I've had a few people messaging and asking about Perf cutting on the graphtec... I get it, the company I worked for went 10+ years not realizing it can perf cut... Now we perf cut almost everything, it makes life so much easier. I made a few videos so people can see how it is. This is on my home machine - We do it at work as a roll to roll on our FC9000... then we move the roll, half roll, or whatever we cut onto the laminator... unwind it on a 4x8 table, and most of the time you can just snap 8 FT of vinyl up and back down on the table and everything falls out

this is perf cutting without using a cut line pattern... So it just cuts all the way through. For smaller stuff (Under 6") It works fine, if it's something bigger like 12" You want to turn on a cutting pattern so it doesnt bend and fall out. For squares or rectangles... I set it up to do all the horizontal cuts first, then it comes back and does all the verticals... it cuts faster, and the sharp corners dont get bent this way.

Video of the machine cutting

Video of how the edges look. It's not too complicated of a cut... but you can see it's got tons of curves.

- heres a video of me just popping a few out. I tried to do it while it was cutting, but holding my phone while recording and popping out with one hand was a pain.

I switch my blades every 2 weeks - They last a lot longer than that... but I pay like .60 a blade, so I'd rather keep it perfectly sharp than find out I forgot to change it and spend an hour fighting with popping them out. I also have a blade holder pre-set for the three materials I use all the time, since it costs like $5 a blade holder.

You can keep the blade in the channel slot and do kiss cut as well...so if you want to kiss and perf cut, you dont need to change the blade. I've done it quite a few times... I know thats everyone's biggest complaint about graphtec... It doesnt bother me, so I just swap to my good blade just incase.


Anyways... Nothing against Summa either! I'm just not as familiar with how they work. I cant imagine perf cutting being any easier than how we do it on our graphtec, but who knows... Maybe summa does it just as good and convenient! I've been looking at getting one of their flatbed finishers for awhile... so I dont have any Bias towards one or the other, besides the fact I'm used to graphtec! Before the 9000 came out, we were looking at summa because it reads reflective better and could handle latex properly. If the 9000 didnt come out the day it did, we'd have a summa as well.

This was really useful stuff!
Only reason I am not looking at Graphtec's is that there is no supplier here in Norway :/

Saturn How do you go about finding the correct settings for die-cutting?

 

[Saturn]

Super sweet videos ikarasu, I'll bet they'll be solely responsible for more than a few Graphtec sales over the coming years.

I'm a little more conservative with how easily I make them fall out, but other than that the Summa performs about the same in speed and quality. I will admit that setting up a Graphtec to do this sounds like it might a tiny bit easier initially, and I can see why folks get frustrated early on and never perfect things. You're motivating me to throw together a couple vids or setup lists of my own for the Summa. ;p

Thanks again ikarasu! Good community service there with the vids!

 

[ikarasu]

You should definitely make one!

I feel like all the youtube videos are dealers who don't know what they're doing... or hobbyists who think they know what they're doing and get subpar results (For both Graphtec and summa).

I just saw a Youtube video about a guy with a HP Cutter (Summa) complaining that it went .1" off on one side... he got told it's because he's perf cutting shapes and not squares, and the machine is not meant to perf anything but squares.... The guy got dismayed and asked where he heard that from, because his dealer told him otherwise when he bought the machine a month ago... the other guy replied saying he's a service tech, works on the machines and theyve never been good at perf cutting anything but squares

Which I know is BS. Summa can do it just as well as Graphtec... both machines have their pros and cons, but I consider both equally comparable.

I think when I do buy an F series, I'll likely get rid of my graphtec and get a summa. Do you have the takeup reel on yours? I love it on the graphtec...except for attaching it to the take up reel... It's impossible to do without having a leader already taped up to the roll and wound around the tension bars. I cant find any videos of it on the summa, wondering if summas option is just as bad, or if theyve perfected it since theyve had it for years

 

[Saturn]

ikarasu, no take up-reel. I run the small 30" Summa and I think the OEM take-ups are only an option on the 50-60" Summa plotters. I also prefer cutting jobs/sheets off as they finish so I can pile them up or get started popping right away at a table.

On the Summa I think people get hung up on the marketing of the "FlexCut" option and try to only focus on using that specific feature. It's not a great option in my opinion and would be best overlooked by anyone trying to do simple 2.0-3.5 mil laminated general use stickers as their core business. Reading that someone else on the forum (years ago) was NOT using FlexCut to do stickers was all it took for me to sort out how I do things now.

I have to admit I'd mostly love to make the video just disprove the doubters... Here I am on a Sunday running dead accurate, clean-edged, easy to pop out stickers for 8 hours like a dummy without a flatbed. I'm sure a lot of us on here feel the same way when you hear "It can't be done!"

 

[ikarasu]

No, I got it, I'm on a fc8600 here, and I still haven't gotten a perf blade to utilize for this, but I have double cut with the regular blade for similar effect (Wrecking my cutting strip in the process). I'm only kinda keen on nailing down such a process, since it kills me to do such small jobs, but if I'm going to do them I might as well do it properly without wearing out the machine.
So you contour cut the vinyl, then just swap to the perf knife and rerun it, or do you have to weed first?

Theres 2 ways. You can have it in the third holder using the same blade and kiss cut and then perf cut without having to move blades... OR you can set it up to run condition 1 which is a kiss cut, then once all of condition one is done... run 8, at which point itll ask you to change the blade position and then auto start cutting without having to read again. You can get crafty and kiss cut all around the design and leave the marks... then weed and then perf cut if you want them pre weeded. I've been just perf cutting right to the edge these days though... personally I find it harder to peel the stickers off, but customers seem to like it that way.

You don't need a special blade or holder for perf cutting. I use a CB09 holder and CB09 blade for perf cutting. You just need to put it in the "third" slot and tell the condition it's in the third slot and you're good to go! You have to extend the blade more... so if you only have one holder it gets annoying constantly having to adjust it in and out, but thats the only downside.

I recommend buying this...

https://www.amazon.com/Graphtec-Hol...?dchild=1&keywords=cb09&qid=1618359480&sr=8-5

For $16 you get a holder and 15 blades... The blades arent bad, they dull pretty quick... The holder is great for perf cutting, but theres a lot of play in it... so I wouldnt use it for small letters / kiss cutting. But it makes a great dedicated perf cutting holder! Plus you get 3 diff types of blades to play around with and find which works best for you perf cut wise. I use the 60 degree ultra sharp ones. (Be careful though...as some chinese blades call the sharp ones 60, some call it 30... so if you do ever buy them, look at the photo and not the degree size! Even if you dont perf cut much, or intend to... for $15 its not bad to play around with. It can come in useful for other jobs as well

 

[ikarasu]

This was really useful stuff!
Only reason I am not looking at Graphtec's is that there is no supplier here in Norway :/

Saturn How do you go about finding the correct settings for die-cutting?

I know I keep linking Graphtec stuff to you... But the Summa is just as capable as the graphtec. I'm not trying to push you into a graphtec (Especially since you cant get one in your Country!) Just showing you what the machines are capable - Graphtec says the same thing about complex shapes... I think both companies say it because they don't want to support teaching users how to do it.. and theres so many different materials out there.

The cheap cheap rolls dont cut good... but the cheap, 3M (Maybe avery too?) rolls do. Heres an example of a decal I just cut today... 3" Tall, you cant get any more complex than this. I felt like the vinyl was going to rip when I plucked it out because some of the sections were really thin! I ruined one decal out of the 2-300 I did... So don't listen to the naysayers that are telling you that you need a 100k table. There are plenty of people who diecut all day long (Myself included) Just fine... and I think a flatbed cutter would slow me down.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XiS7Z2oYyh2VYHDA9

Ignore the green tape on the drummer, My table needs a good cleaning!

 

[BVG]

The cut alignment on that drummer is setting off my OCD

 

[ikarasu]

The cut alignment on that drummer is setting off my OCD

That's what I call the Fiverr special. Everytime I get stickers with cut lines already in the file I ask where they got it done...almost always it's " I paid $8 for them to design and set it up on Fiverr"

If it's a big order I offer to fix it for free. But it was 6 files, 25 of each sticker only... Usually I won't go that low, but pre setup art ready files it's easy. But I'm not fixing their cut lines for free... I just point out they're not even and ask if they're ok with that or want to pay a small artwork fee to fix them all.

You'll see every design is slightly off towards the bottom of the design... I think thats the fiver way to give the photos depth...

 

[Joshua Stephens]

Stickermule uses about 6 graphtecs and diecut a couple hundred thousand decals a day with it .. I'm sure they're making tons more than most of us on S101, so it's a pretty good stunt!

I can't help for the summa. But I can do decently complex curves with perf cutting in the graphtec... Nice smooth edges as well. I probably do thousands a week this way. Can't imagine Making a die for all these 1-200 sticker orders...I can likely finish graphtecing the job before a die is made up. We diecut when we have 100s of thousands of decals of the same shape. But we do roughly 40-60k decals a week on our graphtec with no issue.

Can I ask why you said Sticker Mule has about 6 or how you know they use Graphtecs? I ask because I have 5 FC-9000s and I have a hard time getting 25K cut in a 10-12 hour day.

 

[Saturn]

Can I ask why you said Sticker Mule has about 6 or how you know they use Graphtecs? I ask because I have 5 FC-9000s and I have a hard time getting 25K cut in a 10-12 hour day.

I think there was an old video online panning through their warehouse that maybe some of us are going off of? I'm sure they do 100's of thousands a day (if not more), so they probably do have a much larger fleet at this point. Maybe even some flatbeds.

25k in 12 hours for 5 machines sounds a touch low if everything is automated. My sales don't usually have me cutting more than 5-6k in a single day, but that would be only about 5-8 hours cutting depending on the complexity on a single 30" Summa tangential with a double pass even. Are you using a barcode?

 

[ikarasu]

Can I ask why you said Sticker Mule has about 6 or how you know they use Graphtecs? I ask because I have 5 FC-9000s and I have a hard time getting 25K cut in a 10-12 hour day.

Yes, theres a video of how they produce their decals. I believe it was when they werent as gigantic as they are now... I can't seem to find the video anymore.

Keep in mind they have 17 locations across the world. I'm sure every location is setup differently based on their needs. The about us videos shows one location seems to have 4 flatbed cutters... I know they used to have about 6 graphtecs in 3 rows constantly cutting and diecutting decals. Not sure if they still do, or if they upgraded to flatbed cutters (Personally I think with a takeup you get more throughput on a 9000 since you can load hit, hit a button and walk away... and you get 6 or so roll to roll cutters per flatbed... but I have no experience with the flatbed finishers, so what do I know, I could be wrong)

How big / small are your decals? I can do 20,000 1 x 3" on our FC9000 in 1 shift.... kiss and perf cut. Popping them out not included in that time as we do them roll to roll then send the grunt work downstairs to be popped out.

 

[victor bogdanov]

Can I ask why you said Sticker Mule has about 6 or how you know they use Graphtecs? I ask because I have 5 FC-9000s and I have a hard time getting 25K cut in a 10-12 hour day.

Here is a cool video of diecutsticker.com showing their process, using fc8600 . Video says over a million stickers per month

 

[Joshua Stephens]

I think there was an old video online panning through their warehouse that maybe some of us are going off of? I'm sure they do 100's of thousands a day (if not more), so they probably do have a much larger fleet at this point. Maybe even some flatbeds.

25k in 12 hours for 5 machines sounds a touch low if everything is automated. My sales don't usually have me cutting more than 5-6k in a single day, but that would be only about 5-8 hours cutting depending on the complexity on a single 30" Summa tangential with a double pass even. Are you using a barcode?

Would have been interesting to see the video. Yes, using barcodes. Each cutter isn't down more than 5 minutes each hour to swap rolls/replace blades.

 

[Joshua Stephens]

Yes, theres a video of how they produce their decals. I believe it was when they werent as gigantic as they are now... I can't seem to find the video anymore.

Keep in mind they have 17 locations across the world. I'm sure every location is setup differently based on their needs. The about us videos shows one location seems to have 4 flatbed cutters... I know they used to have about 6 graphtecs in 3 rows constantly cutting and diecutting decals. Not sure if they still do, or if they upgraded to flatbed cutters (Personally I think with a takeup you get more throughput on a 9000 since you can load hit, hit a button and walk away... and you get 6 or so roll to roll cutters per flatbed... but I have no experience with the flatbed finishers, so what do I know, I could be wrong)

How big / small are your decals? I can do 20,000 1 x 3" on our FC9000 in 1 shift.... kiss and perf cut. Popping them out not included in that time as we do them roll to roll then send the grunt work downstairs to be popped out.

I have to think they have a lot more now. I don't have any experience with flatbeds either but it just seems like a step in the wrong direction. Plus, as you mentioned the price is significantly more.

I'd say our average is about 2" x 3". They aren't particularly complex, but seems like they are never circles or squares. But even still feels like we cut a bit slower than average. Acceleration is at 8, speed is at 70, all perf cut, single pass. Anything else I should try?

 

[ikarasu]

Speed is kind of useless on non straight shapes. When it goes around curves / corners the speed drops to regular... It only helps when it's moving or cutting a straight line. Don't get me wrong...speed isnt bad, but I cut everything at 20-30 and I dont notice a difference in how long it takes even at 70... The only difference is reading marks is faster and it jerks the media more when moving...so I keep it at 20-30.

I'd say the most important thing when diecutting speed wise is how many nodes you have. For instance I use vinylmaster to make most of my cut lines... The problem with it (And all auto tracing) Is that the amount of nodes they create is insane. Most people just auto trace and thats that I find most people dont realize it and thats the biggest thing for speed.... But if you simplify the path it makes it a lot faster.


Below is a sample I just did of a not too complex image. On the left is what it auto traced to... 290 anchors. On the right is what illustrator can simplify it to without losing any of the shape.... 70 anchors. I previewed it with the anchors on just to show as an example, it looks like the images are different because of that... but I put the old cutline over the new one and it's almost an exact match.. nothing the naked eye could see without zooming in 20-300%.. That means the file will take roughly 50-75% Less time to cut, which adds up on a job of 1000 images.

You could also experiment with not using a cut line pattern. I still use the perf blade slot, but I'll turn on a regular cut line so it's not going up and down... that speeds it up a lot. When we had rolls of circular labels I did it that way and it went from a few hours a roll to 20 minutes a roll. I've never tried it with complex shapes though.

 

[Joshua Stephens]

Speed is kind of useless on non straight shapes. When it goes around curves / corners the speed drops to regular... It only helps when it's moving or cutting a straight line. Don't get me wrong...speed isnt bad, but I cut everything at 20-30 and I dont notice a difference in how long it takes even at 70... The only difference is reading marks is faster and it jerks the media more when moving...so I keep it at 20-30.

I'd say the most important thing when diecutting speed wise is how many nodes you have. For instance I use vinylmaster to make most of my cut lines... The problem with it (And all auto tracing) Is that the amount of nodes they create is insane. Most people just auto trace and thats that I find most people dont realize it and thats the biggest thing for speed.... But if you simplify the path it makes it a lot faster.


Below is a sample I just did of a not too complex image. On the left is what it auto traced to... 290 anchors. On the right is what illustrator can simplify it to without losing any of the shape.... 70 anchors. I previewed it with the anchors on just to show as an example, it looks like the images are different because of that... but I put the old cutline over the new one and it's almost an exact match.. nothing the naked eye could see without zooming in 20-300%.. That means the file will take roughly 50-75% Less time to cut, which adds up on a job of 1000 images.

View attachment 153188



You could also experiment with not using a cut line pattern. I still use the perf blade slot, but I'll turn on a regular cut line so it's not going up and down... that speeds it up a lot. When we had rolls of circular labels I did it that way and it went from a few hours a roll to 20 minutes a roll. I've never tried it with complex shapes though.

Thanks for the info! We do simplify everything and it does help a lot.
I have a job of 5,000 circles that were cutting tomorrow- so I'll test turning off the cut line pattern with this one and go from there.

 

[Joshua Stephens]

Speed is kind of useless on non straight shapes. When it goes around curves / corners the speed drops to regular... It only helps when it's moving or cutting a straight line. Don't get me wrong...speed isnt bad, but I cut everything at 20-30 and I dont notice a difference in how long it takes even at 70... The only difference is reading marks is faster and it jerks the media more when moving...so I keep it at 20-30.

I'd say the most important thing when diecutting speed wise is how many nodes you have. For instance I use vinylmaster to make most of my cut lines... The problem with it (And all auto tracing) Is that the amount of nodes they create is insane. Most people just auto trace and thats that I find most people dont realize it and thats the biggest thing for speed.... But if you simplify the path it makes it a lot faster.


Below is a sample I just did of a not too complex image. On the left is what it auto traced to... 290 anchors. On the right is what illustrator can simplify it to without losing any of the shape.... 70 anchors. I previewed it with the anchors on just to show as an example, it looks like the images are different because of that... but I put the old cutline over the new one and it's almost an exact match.. nothing the naked eye could see without zooming in 20-300%.. That means the file will take roughly 50-75% Less time to cut, which adds up on a job of 1000 images.

View attachment 153188



You could also experiment with not using a cut line pattern. I still use the perf blade slot, but I'll turn on a regular cut line so it's not going up and down... that speeds it up a lot. When we had rolls of circular labels I did it that way and it went from a few hours a roll to 20 minutes a roll. I've never tried it with complex shapes though.

Just as a quick update I turned off the cut line pattern and it is a little more than twice as fast now and it actually cuts a bit cleaner now. Thanks for the tip!

 

[ikarasu]

Just as a quick update I turned off the cut line pattern and it is a little more than twice as fast now and it actually cuts a bit cleaner now. Thanks for the tip!

Nice, good to hear! I may toy around with it for my complex shapes. I never really cared about speed much because 99% of my cutting these days is at home, so I just set it to cut and watch TV... but being more efficient never hurts.

 

[martinow]

Thanks, everyone for your answers! I just purchased an Epson SC-s80600, summa s one 160, and a laminator. One of the techs at the supplier showed me that FlexCut can perfectly cut out stickers (with complex shapes), and what summa themselves said was wrong. It is perfect. !