Embroidery Equipment

[Mosh]

My mother lost her job (company closed up) so I am thinking of
adding embroidery to our screenprinting div. I am looking at a 2-4 head machine. Any thought on what to get, I know nothing about embroidery.
(wow now I know how all the people I hazed for getting a vinyl cutters feel)
Any thoughts on where to purchase? Training (is is hard to learn)? Software? HELP!

Please help my mother out.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Locals Find!]

My mother lost her job (company closed up) so I am thinking of
adding embroidery to our screenprinting div. I am looking at a 2-4 head machine. Any thought on what to get, I know nothing about embroidery.
(wow now I know how all the people I hazed for getting a vinyl cutters feel)
Any thoughts on where to purchase? Training (is is hard to learn)? Software? HELP!

Please help my mother out.

Thanks,
Chris

I personally would go with a Tajima. Training to run one isn't hard its good digitizing thats hard to learn.

You can sub it out but, most of the companies you will find out there are sub-par.

Stay away from Brother and Toyota. Don't fall for any of the "you can network them together" crap. It doesn't produce good work.

Also, don't let them tell you. Hey you can digitize yourself and do anything. Its just like signs it takes time, practice and patience. Every different material and product requires different methods.

Backing and hooping is one thing most people screw up on. Along with thread density.

Also, don't put it anywhere near your screen printing equipment. The machines need to be cool and clean to run right.

Check out EMB magazine for more on embroidery you can google them. Its a trade mag just like Signcrafters.

 

[Locals Find!]

Oops. Almost forgot google to find the Next ISS show near you. That stands for Imprinted Sportswear Show. They always have all the reps on hand. Good place to see things in action and get some free pointers. Lots of good training classes too on everything.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I personally would go with a Tajima. Training to run one isn't hard its good digitizing thats hard to learn.

Not really. There are programs out there that will allow you to import vector files to have them stitch out. The only thing you have to watch out for is how big the design field needs to be in order to accommodate the design. You don't want to have a 100mmx100mm design field on a pattern that needs a 380mmx200mm to show all the details. Getting the right size for the pattern that you wanting to do is perhaps the most difficult part. Most of your better programs have built in settings for 90% of the fabrics that you would ever embroider on with the standard settings that you would for the pattern to be stitched out on a paticular fabric. Now those settings are general settings, but I have yet to find an instance to where it didn't work out. While not full proof, it does flatten out the learning curve dramatically.

Wings modular is perhaps the most comprehensive program, but damn sure expensive if you were to try to get all the seperate parts. I have a few of the modular pieces, but not all. There are good programs for a 3rd of the price that will allow you to work with Ai files and Draw files(considering one program that comes to mind was done in collaboration with Coral that doesn't surprise me much and that's one that I use a lot moreso then Wings, in fact, it even comes with the base Wing module that you need before any of the other ones that comes with that program. How I got started with Wings modular.).

Stay away from Brother and Toyota.

Not true. I've been running a 6 needle Babyloc(AKA Brother, although they try to seperate the two brands, a Babyloc dealer won't be able to service or get you good deals on a Brother and vice versa) and a 6 needle Brother and highly recommend the machines. Only other one would be the Pfaff machines.

EDIT: I forgot this, but one thing that you have to worry about if you are using Ai files and importing them to be digitized, you'll more then likely be limited to Ai 3-5(which with CS4 I can only do Ai 3 legacy format) and that doesn't support some elements that you can do in CS4(such as clipping masks), in which case I would use a jpg and import that into the embroidery program. Also, like with the die cut machines, in order to get fonts to show up to be cut(or embroidered in this case), you have to "convert to outlines", if you are going to use a font in Ai that isn't in the embroidery program(like my favorite Mesquite font).

As an interesting "sidebar" for any that care, I actually got started into Illustrator in order to create designs for the embroidery machine. It all started with embroidery, then the dreaded heat transfer, then sublimation, hopefully, I'll be able to do the solvent stuff within the next few months and expand.

 

[Locals Find!]

Not really. There are programs out there that will allow you to import vector files to have them stitch out. The only thing you have to watch out for is how big the design field needs to be in order to accommodate the design. You don't want to have a 100mmx100mm design field on a pattern that needs a 380mmx200mm to show all the details. Getting the right size for the pattern that you wanting to do is perhaps the most difficult part. Most of your better programs have built in settings for 90% of the fabrics that you would ever embroider on with the standard settings that you would for the pattern to be stitched out on a paticular fabric. Now those settings are general settings, but I have yet to find an instance to where it didn't work out. While not full proof, it does flatten out the learning curve dramatically.

Wings modular is perhaps the most comprehensive program, but damn sure expensive if you were to try to get all the seperate parts. I have a few of the modular pieces, but not all. There are good programs for a 3rd of the price that will allow you to work with Ai files and Draw files(considering one program that comes to mind was done in collaboration with Coral that doesn't surprise me much and that's one that I use a lot moreso then Wings, in fact, it even comes with the base Wing module that you need before any of the other ones that comes with that program. How I got started with Wings modular.).



Not true. I've been running a 6 needle Babyloc(AKA Brother, although they try to seperate the two brands, a Babyloc dealer won't be able to service or get you good deals on a Brother and vice versa) and a 6 needle Brother and highly recommend the machines. Only other one would be the Pfaff machines.

Have to say from working embroidery first hand for many, many years. On Brother machines they SUCK. As for that vector to output digitized files thats fine if you want flat embroidery with no depth and character.

If you want your embroidery to truly be good you have to A. Learn how to digitize or B. Hire someone that really knows what they are doing.

Garbage in Garbage out philosophy comes into play here. Vector is fine for Screen printing but has no real place in embroidery.

Now as to limiting yourself to a 6 needle machine that just not going to be profitable. A good machine should have at least 12. If your looking to make money. A 6 needle is fine for onesy twosey stuff in a Retail setting or in your garage. However, its not a full fledged production machine.

Brother doesn't make a decent full fledged production machine under any Brand. Do your really wanna invest in equipment from a company that makes office supplies?? That would be like IBM trying to make cars. You are going to get exactly what you pay for.

Also, very hard to find people to service them. Whereas Tajima's and Barudan's are Production quality machines. I have worked on a Barudan that was still kicking after 20 years and we even sold it to a shop down in mexico that is still using it. It was slow but steady as a rock and never missed a thread.

A very good friend of mine is running Four 4-head tajima's and she is outputting about 3,000 pieces a week without a skip.

 

[anthony smith]

Been Emb for almost 15 years Did it to give my sister in law a job when
husband died She does great and works an average of 10 hrs a day
6 to 7 days a week
Its just like screenprinting the small orders are just not profit makers
Barudan is our choice machines Tajimi is a close 2nd
nothing else should even be considered as for as i am concerned
We have 3 Toyotas had since 97 and still use for names and such
but our 6 head barudan is the money maker
set up and had to call tech 1 time we have had machine tuned
1st and just works and works
Lots of good used machines out there these days
But to be honest the emb is the least profitable thing we do
it takes time and lots of it
Screenprinting and signs are much more profitable
be sure to get a machine that changes from cap to flats in a snap
and get a good digitizer
the design is key you can do your self but it takes lots of time
to get good you will try lots before you find a good one
don t believe anything you are told and don t fall for the single head
machines unless you just need to create a hobby for someone
to make money 6 head or more is the only way
and rememeber caps are king if you have a machine that can
handle them

 

[anthony smith]

try equip-used.com
always got good machines at great prices
dont be afraid to call up a company and see if they will
come in and set up and support times are not so good
in the equipment buisness from the reps i speak with

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Have to say from working embroidery first hand for many, many years. On Brother machines they SUCK. As for that vector to output digitized files thats fine if you want flat embroidery with no depth and character.

If you want your embroidery to truly be good you have to A. Learn how to digitize or B. Hire someone that really knows what they are doing.

I've created my own from scratch. I'm not a neophyte at this. I've been doing it for a hobby for a long time before I started doing it at the business level.

Garbage in Garbage out philosophy comes into play here. Vector is fine for Screen printing but has no real place in embroidery.

You'd be surprised what I can do with vector files and embroidery. Now, my main thing is with horse designs, but you would still be surprised.

Now as to limiting yourself to a 6 needle machine that just not going to be profitable. A good machine should have at least 12. If your looking to make money. A 6 needle is fine for onesy twosey stuff in a Retail setting or in your garage. However, its not a full fledged production machine.

Well, other then the few hundred people at a wedding here and there, I haven't done the real big jobs. However, I will say this, I'm not doing the bulk thing. I do the small productions. I've done a few mexican restaurants, stuff like that. Designed their logos in Illustrator brought into another program exported it as a PES file.

Oh and that's 2 six needle machines not just one. That extra does help.

Brother doesn't make a decent full fledged production machine under any Brand. Do your really wanna invest in equipment from a company that makes office supplies?? That would be like IBM trying to make cars. You are going to get exactly what you pay for.

That is actually irrelevent. Just because they also make office supplies doesn't mean that they can't make good embroidery machines or whatever other item you want to think of. Doesn't mean that they do, but it also doesn't mean that they don't. Now if they have something specifically wrong with it then point that out, not just because they happen to also make other type of products as well.

Also, very hard to find people to service them. Whereas Tajima's and Barudan's are Production quality machines. I have worked on a Barudan that was still kicking after 20 years and we even sold it to a shop down in mexico that is still using it. It was slow but steady as a rock and never missed a thread.

Got a guy 5 miles down the road from me that works on them. He does what I can't.

A very good friend of mine is running Four 4-head tajima's and she is outputting about 3,000 pieces a week without a skip.

I would hope so with 4 machines.

EDIT:

I will say this, I actually just prefer to do the design work and sell that and most of the time that's what I do. You'd be surprised at what you can get at what I think y'all would term as the low level embroidery that I am at. Restaurants, local clubs and sports teams. I don't have much desire to get beyond that honestly. But I do prefer to do the one or more designs for people that want something custom. You would just be surprised what can be done first in Illustrator. I'm not saying that it doesn't need to be tweaked in the embroidery program, but you'd be surprised at the output.

 

[Locals Find!]

You can get some great looking flat designs. However, you can't get really good depth with just a vector. As I am sure you know.

Also, I don't like brothers because, of my experience with them snapping needles, cutting thread, re-threading was a pain, alignment was a pain. I can go on for hours. Like I said I worked with them for years. I hate them for a # of reasons, they are cheap machines. I have spent too much of my life working on them. Tajima's and Barudan's were like a vacation after working on Brother's

I know what you can get doing restaurants and such. I also know that you can sell a restaurant 100 + pieces at a pop along with there screen printing. I have lots of experience in this field. Way more than signs.

A twelve head 4 station machine is the way to go for any mid sized shop. You can always close down heads if you need to for running swatches.

The money though is in turning around 4 + pieces at a time as quickly as you can.

 

[Farmboy]

Mosh,
You'll know this better than anyone...do you have a market? How often do you get asked for embroidery? I know it's something you could up sell to your current customers, but would they pay for it. Maybe sub it out to see if it's worth wile. Couple screen shops that I talk with that started out with embroidery wish they could dump their machines...but they're still paying for them.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You can get some great looking flat designs. However, you can't get really good depth with just a vector. As I am sure you know.

No that's true, you can create the illusion of depth fairly decent, but if you going to buildup the design, you have to go in and tweak a lot more, that is true.

Also, I don't like brothers because, of my experience with them snapping needles, cutting thread, re-threading was a pain, alignment was a pain.

This must be with the bigger machines, I don't have a consistent issue. Out of 15 yrs, I've had 2 needles snapped. However, I also do change needles out fairly frequently just as what I perceive to be good practice. Now as far as thread breaking, that depends on if I use metallics or if I use a particular brand of thread(which I've narrowed it down to one). Alignment I haven't had an issue since I started doing it, I was the worst one about getting things on there just so-so when I started. It might as well have been a Jackson Pollack.

The money though is in turning around 4 + pieces at a time as quickly as you can.

Well with anything that would be true. That's efficiency, however, locale does help with my being able to only get that 2 out. Now, yes this isn't the biggest money maker out there, but I would say that even at my low level it does add a decent "chump" change to it all.

 

[trik]

We have a 6 head and a 2 head, SWF machines, really wish we would have bought a 4 head instead of the 2 when we started. But the machines are awesome. When my nieces help out, our machines run about 14 hours a day. Embroidery work is almost always out there, just have to hustle and provide great customer service, biggest complaint I hear on other shops are turn around time.

 

[threads1]

Eh Mosh..........my 2 cents........We’ve been in the biz since 1987, we have machines from 1 head to 12 heads and I digitized for 10 years.

We like Tajima because they are very versatile and as long as you do the proper maintenance they will run forever. Finding support in the event of a problem is pretty easy. They also change from hats to flats quickly. They are built like a tank. The only better machine available is a Phaff but your limited to flat work only.

If you’re going to get into this I would stay away from used. Too many hidden problems that may not show up right away could cost a fortune. A lot of people don’t oil properly and you could get a shaft or bearing seizure and that’s a P.I.A.

Don’t let anybody sell you on digitizing yourself. You need to learn how to embroider first. Thread is a funny animal. You can do a lot with it but you need to know how to run a design that will pop off the garment, won’t be loaded up with unnecessary stitches, and is production friendly so you can make money. There are a lot of great digitizers out there that give fast service at reasonable prices.

I’d go with a 4-head.

Have fun

 

[Decal Dude]

This post has been VERY Enlightening! My wife and I run a small "out of our home" custom decal company. We (I) have been toying with the idea of adding embroidery for years. Very good insight. Now if I can just get my Gerber FX to print tight registration, I'll be good to go.


Decal Dude

p.s. I love the Margret Thatcher quote.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Adtechia I was just looking over our exchange and I just need some clarification for my own standpoint.

When you are against using vector files for embroidery, are you talking about importing Ai(just for instances) into the document, digitizing it and then only exporting it to what ever the needed file need be(PES etc)? And that's all?

I think I might have given you that impression that that's what I do and that isn't it. I use the Ai file as a starting point. I add designs within designs, I build up etc, only when someone wants it to be just a plain jane reproduction do I leave it as is(business logos typically is the case, atleast for me).

I just think I might have given the wrong impression about my use of vectors with regard to embroidery.

 

[dhamlett15]

I have been using an swf single head for a about a year now and so far it has been good. You can buy used equipment from the with warranty and training included.

 

[Locals Find!]

Adtechia I was just looking over our exchange and I just need some clarification for my own standpoint.

When you are against using vector files for embroidery, are you talking about importing Ai(just for instances) into the document, digitizing it and then only exporting it to what ever the needed file need be(PES etc)? And that's all?

I think I might have given you that impression that that's what I do and that isn't it. I use the Ai file as a starting point. I add designs within designs, I build up etc, only when someone wants it to be just a plain jane reproduction do I leave it as is(business logos typically is the case, atleast for me).

I just think I might have given the wrong impression about my use of vectors with regard to embroidery.

I got that was what you were doing. You are actually using that as a base for digitizing. There is nothing wrong with your methodology. What I was warning about are those companies out there that say hey send us vector and for $25 we will turn your file into a digitized file in 12 hours.

I am sure you have seen them. They are normally the same companies that advertise send us a scan and we can make it vector. Those are the ones to watch out for. A lot of the sales guys out there that sell that junk software to companies. Really prey on those who don't know what they are getting into and 10 grand later you are putting out garbage and not even realizing it.

 

[Locals Find!]

Just as a side Note. I am a huge believer in contracting out embroidery whenever possible.

There are some good companies out there like Atlas Screenprinting and Embroidery and some others I am sure maybe even on here in the merchants area who are Trade only. T

hey are setup for shops large and small that need fast turnaround without all the hassle of running and maintaining equipment.

Its a good way to start and kinda feel out your market before making a huge investment into something that you can't just put up on craigslist if it doesn't work out.

 

[Marlene]

put mom on a plow and set her loose in the fields as it's cheaper than buying a piece of equiment.

 

[Mosh]

I can always use the tax write-off. Thanks for the info all!!!

 

[binki]

more heads is more work out the door in a shorter period of time. embroidery has a nice margin.

tajima is considered the best. next up is swf, melco, toyota, brother, and after that everyone else.

the process is mechanical to do the sewing. not complicated at all.

digitizing is a little tougher but you can do it. it just takes a little practice and a few grand in software. you can also send out work to be digitized and there are many skilled folks who do only that.