Flatbed Cutters

[Raum Divarco]

Do you have the conveyor table? I like the option but not sure of the $20K additional coast. Any thoughts on that?

Regardless of what you are doing today, you should always leave room for what you may do tomorrow.
the vast majority of people who buy machines will regret not getting the conveyor upfront.
Do your routing jobs and knife cut sheets as you typically would but have the option knowing you have full roll processing capability.
If you are opting for a sheet fed unit or are 100% certain you dont want to deviate from sheets, then maybe you are fine with a static one.
The machine configuration will always work smoother if you get it added before hand.
Adding stuff later isnt as smooth as having it built that way.

 

[Raum Divarco]

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting a flatbed cutter for the shop. My main priority is increasing efficiency. We already have a 40" laser cutter, so it won't add too much to our capabilities.

I'm thinking a Summa Flatbed Cutter. Does anyone have experience with the summa F or another flatbed and can speak to what efficiencies you gained?

Thank you!

If you have the budget, consider getting more than one of something.
You have a laser which adds great capabilities.

You can get a flatbed cutter with a smaller router for backup at an attractive price.
Flatbed knife cutting is fast and clean.
F Series and Apex Series are pretty good options for fast processing.

If you want more of a 50/50 versatile machine there are plenty of options for that.
Kongsberg/Multicam, Gerber/MCT, CUTWORX, Colex, Zund & DYSS have some versatile platforms depending on budget.

If you need a lot of front end integration for preflight and rip options there are a few great choices too.
These include Kongsberg/multicam, Zund & gerber/MCT
Keep in mind that many Rips and front end softwares export as pdf, XML etc. and many less integrated machines can read those.
So you can mix and match software and hardware options to best suit your needs.

If you need heavier duty router cutting with other capabilities there are some more specialized machines.
AXYZ, Biesse, Kongsberg/Multicam, Laguna etc.

Textile options have quite a few.
There are also several high end expensive ones depending on your budget.

If you are looking for the most tools to cover the most processes, i would stick with:
Kongsberg/Multicam, Cutworx, Gerber/MCT and Zund.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We added a Summa F1612 about a year ago, it has been a great addition to our shop, we use it for cutting out decals, trimming down prints into panels, through cutting signs on PVC, coroplast etc. Its gotten to the point where I can't imagine working without it now, it saves us a ton of labour time, if you currently have an employee who just trims prints and other menial table work, this table will easily replace them, and with a better attitude as well

The router add on leaves a bit to be desired, it is not a replacement for a proper CNC router as it takes significantly longer to load sheets onto the table, and you need to add a outfeed table or your freshly cut pieces will crash to the floor when the table advances. the Summa also lacks any 3D routing capability, although my understanding is that this is a software limitation and may be added on in the future.

Also routing ACM with printed vinyl applied is tricky, I can't find a way that leaves the faces of the vinyl un-scratched and without adhesive smeared around the outer edge of the sign, this adds quite a bit of post processing finishing.

If your needs are mostly soft goods (decals, banners, PVC, Coroplast) the summa is probably the best bang for the buck, we view the router as a "nice to have" feature that is better than subbing out our routering like we used to, but if we were routering on a regular basis I would look at a different machine.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We added a Summa F1612 about a year ago, it has been a great addition to our shop, we use it for cutting out decals, trimming down prints into panels, through cutting signs on PVC, coroplast etc. Its gotten to the point where I can't imagine working without it now, it saves us a ton of labour time, if you currently have an employee who just trims prints and other menial table work, this table will easily replace them, and with a better attitude as well

The router add on leaves a bit to be desired, it is not a replacement for a proper CNC router as it takes significantly longer to load sheets onto the table, and you need to add a outfeed table or your freshly cut pieces will crash to the floor when the table advances. the Summa also lacks any 3D routing capability, although my understanding is that this is a software limitation and may be added on in the future.

Also routing ACM with printed vinyl applied is tricky, I can't find a way that leaves the faces of the vinyl un-scratched and without adhesive smeared around the outer edge of the sign, this adds quite a bit of post processing finishing.

If your needs are mostly soft goods (decals, banners, PVC, Coroplast) the summa is probably the best bang for the buck, we view the router as a "nice to have" feature that is better than subbing out our routering like we used to, but if we were routering on a regular basis I would look at a different machine.

Canuck,
Have you tried using downcut bits with a higher lift? Or drilling out the reg marks and flipping the sheet over and using an upcut?

The problem with vinyl mounting to sheets is the cut direction of the bit needs to "push" or "pull" the vinyl into the surface of the sheet instead of away. To combat adhesive buildup we have found increasing the RPM of our spindle to between 24,000 and 28,000 reduces the adhesive binding on the bit.

 

[Trucks]

Do you have the conveyor table? I like the option but not sure of the $20K additional coast. Any thoughts on that?

Dave,
We have conveyor and auto-loader on our Colex machines. I'm not sure what you production process looks like, but we will not purchase another production machine without both!

 

[CanuckSigns]

Canuck,
Have you tried using downcut bits with a higher lift? Or drilling out the reg marks and flipping the sheet over and using an upcut?

The problem with vinyl mounting to sheets is the cut direction of the bit needs to "push" or "pull" the vinyl into the surface of the sheet instead of away. To combat adhesive buildup we have found increasing the RPM of our spindle to between 24,000 and 28,000 reduces the adhesive binding on the bit.

Thanks for the tips! I have tried flipping the sheet over and it does give better results, however with the 1612 you can't flip a sheet longer than the 47" working area of the bed, since it has to segment the 4x8 sheet into multiple panels.

I've never tried drilling out the regmarks, is that a feature of the summa, or is i something you do manually?

I think the spindle on the summa tops out at 25,000 RPM, and I do run it at full tilt 99% of the time, I still don't have a great feel for feeds & speeds on this machine, it seems like I can use the exact same settings 5 times and come back with 5 different cut qualities.

 

[SignEST]

Thanks for the tips! I have tried flipping the sheet over and it does give better results, however with the 1612 you can't flip a sheet longer than the 47" working area of the bed, since it has to segment the 4x8 sheet into multiple panels.

I've never tried drilling out the regmarks, is that a feature of the summa, or is i something you do manually?

I think the spindle on the summa tops out at 25,000 RPM, and I do run it at full tilt 99% of the time, I still don't have a great feel for feeds & speeds on this machine, it seems like I can use the exact same settings 5 times and come back with 5 different cut qualities.

Cut 1/8 ACM at around 16500 RPM moving 80-100 IPM single flute downcut moving in climb direction not conventional. Not sure if the spindle can handle such low rpms but 1/8 cutter should not put too much pressure on it. You definitely need something else under it as it will need to cut about 1/64 - 1/32 into the bed or your spoilboard. There should be no cleanup besides a quick blast with the air and you're good to go. Don't run your dust cover over your prints, make it hover like 1/8-1/4 above the substrate.

There will be minimal dust anyway since you're cutting previnyled ACM sheets and the chips will all stick together.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Thanks for the tips! I have tried flipping the sheet over and it does give better results, however with the 1612 you can't flip a sheet longer than the 47" working area of the bed, since it has to segment the 4x8 sheet into multiple panels.

I've never tried drilling out the regmarks, is that a feature of the summa, or is i something you do manually?

I think the spindle on the summa tops out at 25,000 RPM, and I do run it at full tilt 99% of the time, I still don't have a great feel for feeds & speeds on this machine, it seems like I can use the exact same settings 5 times and come back with 5 different cut qualities.

What size cut diameter bit are you using?

We don't have a Summa, but on every machine I have used you can set the marks to also cut.

 

[CanuckSigns]

What size cut diameter bit are you using?

We don't have a Summa, but on every machine I have used you can set the marks to also cut.

We usually use a 4mm upcut single flute O bit

 

[balstestrat]

Thanks for the tips! I have tried flipping the sheet over and it does give better results, however with the 1612 you can't flip a sheet longer than the 47" working area of the bed, since it has to segment the 4x8 sheet into multiple panels.

I've never tried drilling out the regmarks, is that a feature of the summa, or is i something you do manually?

I think the spindle on the summa tops out at 25,000 RPM, and I do run it at full tilt 99% of the time, I still don't have a great feel for feeds & speeds on this machine, it seems like I can use the exact same settings 5 times and come back with 5 different cut qualities.

If you use the flip function of Goproduce you can't do longer than that? It should cut out the marks and be possible.

 

[CanuckSigns]

If you use the flip function of Goproduce you can't do longer than that? It should cut out the marks and be possible.

I've actually never tried it, I guess I have some testing to do next week.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

There you go, they have a built in function!

 

[Print1]

Do you have the conveyor table? I like the option but not sure of the $20K additional coast. Any thoughts on that?

We have a conveyor unit available in 5x5 or 64”x126” or really any size you would need.

 

[axelmk]

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting a flatbed cutter for the shop. My main priority is increasing efficiency. We already have a 40" laser cutter, so it won't add too much to our capabilities.

I'm thinking a Summa Flatbed Cutter. Does anyone have experience with the summa F or another flatbed and can speak to what efficiencies you gained?

Thank you!

We looked at Summa three years ago before buying our 5x10 Colex.
Have not regretted our decision at all. Both are good machines, but what made the difference for us was the level of the support team. I met personally with the owner of Colex in NJ and he is a very professional and honorable man. Except for the Frame, everything else is manufactured and assembled in NJ.
In three Years of operation we've had very little issues, but the small ones we've had, have been resolved remotely in a very reasonable time.

we are in TX as well. Let me know if have any other questions to discuss.

Axel

 

[CanuckSigns]

If you use the flip function of Goproduce you can't do longer than that? It should cut out the marks and be possible.

I just got a reply from Summa support, the 1612 is not able to drill through the regmarks to allow for backside cutting, they do have a backside cutting featute where it scans the distance from the marks to the sheet edge, then you flip it over and it scans the edges of the sheet again and uses some sort of witchcraft to cut it out, however this feature is limited to the size of the working area.

 

[balstestrat]

I just got a reply from Summa support, the 1612 is not able to drill through the regmarks to allow for backside cutting, they do have a backside cutting featute where it scans the distance from the marks to the sheet edge, then you flip it over and it scans the edges of the sheet again and uses some sort of witchcraft to cut it out, however this feature is limited to the size of the working area.

Okay, interesting as it's still being mentioned in the user guide. But I never tried it either.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I just got a reply from Summa support, the 1612 is not able to drill through the regmarks to allow for backside cutting, they do have a backside cutting featute where it scans the distance from the marks to the sheet edge, then you flip it over and it scans the edges of the sheet again and uses some sort of witchcraft to cut it out, however this feature is limited to the size of the working area.

I would try to setup a file that has 2 layers. the SummaReg Layer and a Duplicate for your Cut. See if can scan and cut the marks that way. This is how we did it on our iEcho.