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Friends with other sign shops, why the problem

TimToad

Active Member
Actually I have more jobs then I can keep up with. I need extra help and I have turned down some jobs because of the work load. Why? Mainly my reputation and fast turn around times.

And after all this "friendliness" over the years, are you all in the same neighborhood on shop rates and general pricing?

I just wonder if the recent cold shoulder and your ascendancy into being so busy could have anything to do with pricing and the knowledge you've gained about their pricing through the years of buying signs from them all?
 

ams

New Member
I believe in helping out my fellow human if I can, even competitors.
Other sign shops are not the enemy, low profit margins are, and when
we can work together, everyone does better.

Exactly, if they go out of their way to hurt you or try to undercut everyone, that is petty and ignorant.
 

ams

New Member
Local sign shops are the enemy when it comes with low profit margins. How many of you can run your business at $40.00 or $50.00 per hr. There is not a lot of profit left over at those prices. And if you don't match the
competitions price your customer will leave. The more sign shops in a area means less profit for you, because everyone is fighting to get that job.

I don't lose many jobs when someone is undercutting or they see online prices. Because if I tell someone I have a much higher quality product and can get it to them next day, they use me. Most of the shops in town have about a 5 day turn around on banners, online is usually 4 - 10 depending on who you use. So when I can do it in 1 day, they go with me.

So you have to educate your customers on why your product is superior.
 

ams

New Member
I think you need to define "friends" better. What makes a "friend" in your eyes?

Are we cordial, respectful (not always mutually on the receiving end) and civil with our other competitors? Sure.

Does that make us "friends"? maybe, but not in my definition.

Do we cover an overflow job from time to time and do wholesale work for nearby shops that don't have a type of machine or expertise we might have? Frequently

Do a few of us borrow materials or tools from each other if in need? Regularly

Do we sip a few beers at the local craft brewery and trade shop talk, etc. after hours? At least once a week.

There is one outgoing ( both in his personality and his status at the nearby shop he has a diminishing interest in ) competitor who we've befriended and we actually do social things together outside of work and the local hangout. He is what I consider a friend and I also consider him a peer and colleague. I'd hire him in a minute if I knew it wouldn't start a war with his soon to be former partner who remains in charge of the company.

They had a chance to buy the company I bought and neither must have any savings or decent credit because we bought the company with little down and just our excellent credit. Once our "friend" got to know us, he took our arrival and purchase of the business as any self-assured, good craftsperson would, he embraced the idea of us all doing better designed and better looking work for our whole community despite being in competition. Not that there weren't plenty of other great signmakers around here already, but our arrival has only helped elevate the quality of work being created.

That being said, the other partner who our "friend" is escaping sooner than later feigns friendship with my wife and I, is condescending and patronizing towards us all the while actively trying to poach our clients, underbids any job he thinks we may also be bidding on which is having an effect on the local market as a whole, and flaunts the fact that he is doing electrical signs and channel letter jobs without permits, insurance or licensing. Its like he's challenging me to turn him in, but we have no interest in doing that type of work, so our days are filled doing the best we can with our type of work. The fact that he can also underbid the other fully licensed, insured electric sign companies in the area is the only thing keeping them in business. Sooner or later, one of those companies or any number of local permit departments will catch on and who knows what will happen.

When we first took over here, he acted all hurt as if we had cheated him out of something. For the sake of civility and peace, I've never confronted him with the obvious fact that if only he had put away a few bucks and possibly taken better care of his credit, he could have easily eliminated his primary competition. Of course, he would have had to learn how to manage a much larger company, straddle two locations about a half mile apart, tackle the obvious dual branding challenges, staffing, etc.

The ironic thing now is that he has approached us multiple times for the last year about buying him out.

Our shops are only about a half mile apart and when one of "their" customers mistakenly comes here and discovers the mistake, we ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS send them down the street. The same cannot be said when the same thing happens with one of our potential customers and we have multiple instances of it happening to know its true.

Its amazing the stuff one can learn about how a competitor operates, treats their employees, targets your customers, their pricing, etc. after a few rounds of drinks.

So, to the OP, I'd be careful about who and how you define a "friend". Maybe those others in your area were comfortable with your "friendship" when you were newer, smaller and using their services. Once the training wheels came off and you established yourself, the dynamics of the relationship changed because you no longer were depending on them, nullifying their position of superiority.

I feel like I am reading a part of the dictionary. Really wasn't on topic.
 

ams

New Member
And after all this "friendliness" over the years, are you all in the same neighborhood on shop rates and general pricing?

I just wonder if the recent cold shoulder and your ascendancy into being so busy could have anything to do with pricing and the knowledge you've gained about their pricing through the years of buying signs from them all?

I haven't changed my labor rates since I opened my business on August 1st 2010. Pricing? It's increased over the years but didn't decrease at all.
I want to be able to use local shops to get things I need and also have someone I trust to refer customers to. But if they won't deal with me, they are losing sales and customers and it hurts me as well. It's a lose lose.
 

TimToad

Active Member
I haven't changed my labor rates since I opened my business on August 1st 2010. Pricing? It's increased over the years but didn't decrease at all.
I want to be able to use local shops to get things I need and also have someone I trust to refer customers to. But if they won't deal with me, they are losing sales and customers and it hurts me as well. It's a lose lose.

I went back and edited everything out of my first post except what I believe to be the crux of the issue. I still think its important to have good relations with your competitors, but only if its mutually respectful.

Frankly, I don't know enough about you or your competitors to ascertain why they have cooled to you. It appears that you've made a splash in your area and for some reason, your old suppliers have distanced themselves. It could be for any variety of reasons any of which is resentment, jealousy, hard times, etc.

I do think its relevant to consider the fact that you haven't raised your labor rate in over five years. Even if you've raised your prices, but kept your overall shop rate stagnant and they haven't by even a couple of percent per year, you will almost always outbid them by 10% or more on stuff where the shop rate comes into play like installations, travel time, etc.

For all any of us know, you built your business with the intimate knowledge of their pricing and labor rate because you were a "customer" at the time and are now cleaning their clocks because of information that they handed you as a "customer".

I don't know, I'd rather think the best of your intentions than the bad, but we can only pipe in your initial questions and the facts you and not them have provided.
 

player

New Member
So basically if I referred someone to them or bought signs from that, that is hurting their business? That doesn't make any sense sorry.


So basically NO. You are incorrect in how you are comprehending what was clearly written.

What does "or bought signs from that" mean?

You are saying to them "I will sell your products as my own, as your competitor." They are saying "No you won't. Buy your own $150,000 flatbed
and see how you do." You never said you are referring your customers to their shop. You said you are buying their products and reselling them as your own to your customers in their market.
 

Techman

New Member
The reason some will not be friendly,,
Because so many so called bizz persons are actually poachers.
They poach clients. With the justification that the client can go anywhere, Well yes they can,, But when one actively pursues a client they met through work at another shop then that is poaching.

They poach ideas./ Yes no one has a monopoly on designs. But when one goes to a shop and observes a design and then sells that same basic design somewhere else. That is poaching.

When one finds out the name of a client and calls him selling a set of work cheaper,, That is poaching.

When a signee goes to another shop and observes them creating lots of work so he goes out and purchases equipment to edge in on said work,, that is poaching.

Or steals a trade secret. Or bad mouths a fellow.

The case I really do not like is when another,, lesser competent comes to me to save them,, and then demands a discount that is so low it will cost me to savc him because he didn't charge enough..

Or demands I pay in cash in advance when I need something done,, yet demands to pay next week when it comes to do something for him


We get the point.. Do not be a poacher and maybe other will be willing to be friendly.
 

s500

New Member
Friendship between competitors?
where money is involved, there is no friendship. We can not do everything ourselves and rely on competition. Everyone has to decide for itself with whom he will work himself.


I think the google translation sounds funny. :smile:
 

ams

New Member
I went back and edited everything out of my first post except what I believe to be the crux of the issue. I still think its important to have good relations with your competitors, but only if its mutually respectful.

Frankly, I don't know enough about you or your competitors to ascertain why they have cooled to you. It appears that you've made a splash in your area and for some reason, your old suppliers have distanced themselves. It could be for any variety of reasons any of which is resentment, jealousy, hard times, etc.

I do think its relevant to consider the fact that you haven't raised your labor rate in over five years. Even if you've raised your prices, but kept your overall shop rate stagnant and they haven't by even a couple of percent per year, you will almost always outbid them by 10% or more on stuff where the shop rate comes into play like installations, travel time, etc.

For all any of us know, you built your business with the intimate knowledge of their pricing and labor rate because you were a "customer" at the time and are now cleaning their clocks because of information that they handed you as a "customer".

I don't know, I'd rather think the best of your intentions than the bad, but we can only pipe in your initial questions and the facts you and not them have provided.

It was never my intention to outbid or take jobs away from the other sign shops, but it does happen. I didn't study their pricing, labor rates, structure, etc. However I have grown fast and gotten much bigger in the past three years. So I guess I am a real threat now and not back then.
 

ams

New Member
So basically NO. You are incorrect in how you are comprehending what was clearly written.

What does "or bought signs from that" mean?

You are saying to them "I will sell your products as my own, as your competitor." They are saying "No you won't. Buy your own $150,000 flatbed
and see how you do." You never said you are referring your customers to their shop. You said you are buying their products and reselling them as your own to your customers in their market.

So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me.
It was suppose to be "bought signs from them" which you've made many spelling mistakes in your lifetime so don't even start.
 

ams

New Member
The reason some will not be friendly,,
Because so many so called bizz persons are actually poachers.
They poach clients. With the justification that the client can go anywhere, Well yes they can,, But when one actively pursues a client they met through work at another shop then that is poaching.

They poach ideas./ Yes no one has a monopoly on designs. But when one goes to a shop and observes a design and then sells that same basic design somewhere else. That is poaching.

When one finds out the name of a client and calls him selling a set of work cheaper,, That is poaching.

When a signee goes to another shop and observes them creating lots of work so he goes out and purchases equipment to edge in on said work,, that is poaching.

Or steals a trade secret. Or bad mouths a fellow.

The case I really do not like is when another,, lesser competent comes to me to save them,, and then demands a discount that is so low it will cost me to savc him because he didn't charge enough..

Or demands I pay in cash in advance when I need something done,, yet demands to pay next week when it comes to do something for him


We get the point.. Do not be a poacher and maybe other will be willing to be friendly.

I've actually had a company called Sir Speedy poach me. I taught their salesman everything and helped them out many times. Towards the end, he started asking me real trade secret questions, which I stopped helping him. Then all of a sudden they were stealing my customers, they were posting jobs from every recent customer I had and got into the sign market. Needless to say I called them up, yelled at them and told them they are banned from my shop. The owner was like "Umm I don't understand what you are talking about?" and playing dumb.

My goal is just to help each other out, I never want to shut down a company by stealing ideas, work, etc. There is one company in town that their customers keep coming to me to fix their mistakes or to switch companies. I never solicited their business, they came to me on their own free will. If the shop is that bad, then they deserve to lose the business. If you run a legit honest company and do good work, they will stay with you.
 

Junkie

New Member
Friends

I've been in this industry since 97', opened my shop in 2000. I am friendly will a lot over other shops in the area, some smaller, some larger than us. We have helped it each other out of jams, shared info and/or tips and warned each other of customers to avoid. I'm sure I have lost some jobs to them and sure I've won some jobs. Fortunately, I do not need every job that comes through the door. I have never concerned myself with how they run their business or what their prices might be, I just run my business like I want to run my business. I like knowing if I am in a pinch at 4 o'clock on Friday and I needed something one of them had on their shelf, that I can call and they would gladly help me out and vise versa.
 

player

New Member
So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me.
It was suppose to be "bought signs from them" which you've made many spelling mistakes in your lifetime so don't even start.

"So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me." Again I don't think you have written this correctly and I don't want to guess.

You're very snippy. I had no idea what "or bought signs from that" means, nor would anyone else.

They don't want to help you be their competitor. I don't supply other local sign gnats with cut vinyl, printing, laminating or CNC products or materials.
 

ams

New Member
"So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me." Again I don't think you have written this correctly and I don't want to guess.

You're very snippy. I had no idea what "or bought signs from that" means, nor would anyone else.

They don't want to help you be their competitor. I don't supply other local sign gnats with cut vinyl, printing, laminating or CNC products or materials.

If you don't work with other sign shops, then you are losing out on more jobs and making yourself an enemy to the others. If you aren't willing to give the time of day to someone, they may target you and try to get business away from you. You don't understand logic and I am not being snippy. It's common sense. If I was being snippy I'd be making a big scene over this and not just a general discussion. :thumb:
 

TimToad

Active Member
If you don't work with other sign shops, then you are losing out on more jobs and making yourself an enemy to the others. If you aren't willing to give the time of day to someone, they may target you and try to get business away from you. You don't understand logic and I am not being snippy. It's common sense. If I was being snippy I'd be making a big scene over this and not just a general discussion. :thumb:

You just contradicted yourself. You taught the guy who went to Sir Speedy everything you knew and he still poached from from you. The other shops who you used to utilize and patronize taught you plenty I'm sure.

I'm buddies with the guys down the street and they poach from us all the time. Its not like we throw up our hands if one of their disgruntled or former clients comes here and refuse their work, but we don't actively work at poaching their clients. We don't make a big deal about it because we get jobs we both bid on just as frequently but for different reasons based on our longer industry experience, better reputation, ease of working together and sometimes price I'm sure. We're happy with our approach, pricing and sales revenue without compromising our ethics. With thousands of customers in our data base, we have a hard enough time checking in with the folks we've done work for in the past but not heard from in a while let alone try to poach other shops customers.

This is more about you and how you presented the initial post on this thread, how its morphed a little as we dig deeper into it, your responses to many of our responses, etc.
 

reQ

New Member
There are other 5 sign shops in our small city of 45k people. I am in very good relations with only 1 shop, and for only one reason - competitors bash each other infront of customers (not all of them do but good chunk still do). Friend of mine was working for one shop when i just started. I had only 24" roland cutter and i was pretty much underdog in the city (all other shops had printers, laminators, bucket trucks etc.) Well, owner of that shop told my friend - "There is no way this f*king russian guy will get any business & survive. And no, she did not know that that guy was my friend and he told me about that. (yet, couple months ago she called me to see if i can sell her some 4x8 dibond sheets because she did run out of it & needed them today. Sold them to her for my cost and felt great because i did not have to act like her.

I am personally pretty simple guy & can talk / be friendly with competition without any problem. But if they are a$$h***s, then no thanks.
 

player

New Member
If you don't work with other sign shops, then you are losing out on more jobs and making yourself an enemy to the others. If you aren't willing to give the time of day to someone, they may target you and try to get business away from you. You don't understand logic and I am not being snippy. It's common sense. If I was being snippy I'd be making a big scene over this and not just a general discussion. :thumb:

You know nothing about my business, my products, my local market. I don't need any local "buddies". I am not looking for business, materials or help of any kind from my competitors. I am good at planning, purchasing and execution. I have a market, and I keep what I do, how I do it and who my customers to myself.

You did not clarify what you meant from the other post:
"So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me." Again I don't think you have written this correctly and I don't want to guess.
 

TimToad

Active Member
You know nothing about my business, my products, my local market. I don't need any local "buddies". I am not looking for business, materials or help of any kind from my competitors. I am good at planning, purchasing and execution. I have a market, and I keep what I do, how I do it and who my customers to myself.

You did not clarify what you meant from the other post:
"So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me." Again I don't think you have written this correctly and I don't want to guess.

While being open to interact with industry folks I consider mutually respectful colleagues and I have some signmaking friends dating back 30+ years, I completely understand and respect your desire to keep things straight and focus on the business at hand. That being said, these career long friends and colleagues weren't shops I was buying my way into the business from.

I know the opportunities for camaraderie that I enjoy and cherish like going to meets, shop open houses, seminars, etc. are different and I'm able to easily keep them separate from what I think most of us raising concerns in this thread are talking about.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Thanks for your honesty.
 

Sidney

New Member
Having relationships with other sign businesses can and will be beneficial. We have strengths and individual products that make us who we are. I, personally have been asked to do sign projects for fellow sign businesses because of scheduling demands etc and in return have gone to them for projects ....it is a win, win. Just my experience:)
 
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