Interesting Stuff...

[WildWestDesigns]

Article

Seems to be coming down the pipeline for Washington state, California and NY. Looking into new CNC equipment/3D printers (and it appears to be a broad umbrella coverage here), may have a few things to deal with pre and post sell.

The linked article above is about NY, but if I recall correctly Cali and Wash have their own coming down the pipeline. Fun times.

 

[White Haus]

TLDR but if it stops people from printing guns to shoot people with, it sounds like a good idea to me.

I know but what about privacy blah blah but I personally wouldn't give a shit if someone wanted to monitor my CNC files.

 

[Stacey K]

Interesting. New York seized 100 in 2019 and 637 in 2022. I didn't realize people were doing this.

Sounds like the software isn't quite where it should be yet. I wonder what happens if your project gets flagged? Will you need to upload your design to the government library for them to approve before proceeding? Hopefully they have a process in place before implementation or you might be waiting weeks for approval.

It also stated manufacturers will likely add this software to all machines vs. having two product lines for states requiring it and not, so it could affect everyone. Who will house the master database?

From the article:
One 3D printer manufacturer ran pilot tests of proposed print-blocking algorithms. The results were dismal: 17 percent of non-weapon prints were flagged due to superficial resemblance to firearm components. Film props. Kids' toys. Decorative models. Pipes and brackets. All blocked.

The EFF has characterized this as a "classification problem with enormous false positive and false negative rates." Anyone actually trying to print illegal weapon parts can trivially split files into segments or modify geometries to evade pattern detection. Meanwhile, legitimate users will find their workflow interrupted by an algorithm that can't tell a bicycle bracket from a trigger guard.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

TLDR but if it stops people from printing guns to shoot people with, it sounds like a good idea to me.

Not really, it's more culture that is an issue compared to access to guns or not.

I grew up in a time where people, at school had gun racks with their rifles visible, ammo not far away, after school is off to hunt what was in season. We had plenty of fist fights, I'm unaware of a shooting during my time there. Again culture.

Ironically, if one is motivated enough, they will go to great lengths to get something done.

I know but what about privacy blah blah but I personally wouldn't give a shit if someone wanted to monitor my CNC files.

Until it flags your projects for false positives that you have to go through and explain yourself as to why you have a design that looks an awful lot like a gun part, many, many times over. After all, better to be "safe" compared to let one part slip through.

I do find ironic, people seem to think that just because they don't have something to hide, that having spyware is a good/safe thing to have. And rarely does it stop here, but it's much harder to get back once it is lost. All in the name of "safety", which otherwise, really hasn't been much of a concern otherwise.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

It also stated manufacturers will likely add this software to all machines vs. having two product lines for states requiring it and not, so it could affect everyone. Who will house the master database?

Oh, there is no way that this wouldn't be to all machines. Economies of scale demand it. Unless they pull out of those states, which I doubt.

As to who houses the database, since these, for now, are state, I would say that it would depend on the state itself. Here is the thing, I can easily see things happening "post sale" as well. After all, with EPA etc, didn't stop electronic tuners to come out and electronically "delete" emission equipment on vehicles. So I imagine even stricter laws coming down the pipeline.

 

[Stacey K]

Until it flags your projects for false positives that you have to go through and explain yourself as to why you have a design that looks an awful lot like a gun part, many, many times over. After all, better to be "safe" compared to let one part slip through.

I do find ironic, people seem to think that just because they don't have something to hide, that having spyware is a good/safe thing to have. And rarely does it stop here, but it's much harder to get back once it is lost. All in the name of "safety", which otherwise, really hasn't been much of a concern otherwise.

That's the problem...they are going to start adding to it. Hopefully it's such a disaster that they do away with it. I can see in the initial few months having so many files flagged that the backlog is months.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

That's the problem...they are going to start adding to it. Hopefully it's such a disaster that they do away with it. I can see in the initial few months having so many files flagged that the backlog is months.

Here is the irony. People that have these types of equipment are also pretty crafty in other ways (not always, but there is an overlap). Nothing stopping someone from creating a mold traditionally, casting it into something viable (or selling one's services for such a thing). Those that are going to break the law, typically will do so anyway. Sure, some may duck out depending on the level of friction (certainly as more and more people enjoy their tech versus traditional methods of doing things), I'm sure that there are some that want the easiest way. But this is also something that is low hanging fruit to have these types of things in place and easily expanding later. Although, I would say that as more and more people reject traditional/analog methods for computerized ones, this probably will be less of an issue.

Someone somewhere is going to use something to do bad things, despite what the tool was originally created for. Might as well have background checks on kitchen knives or change them for our safety (which was suggested by someone, kitchen knives should be blunted).

I do agree that some people shouldn't have things (felonies/mental issues etc), however, it's kind of hard to argue safety for something when those very people don't actually otherwise controls things like they should.

 

[Stacey K]

Here is the irony. People that have these types of equipment are also pretty crafty in other ways (not always, but there is an overlap). Nothing stopping someone from creating a mold traditionally, casting it into something viable (or selling one's services for such a thing). Those that are going to break the law, typically will do so anyway. Sure, some may duck out depending on the level of friction (certainly as more and more people enjoy their tech versus traditional methods of doing things), I'm sure that there are some that want the easiest way. But this is also something that is low hanging fruit to have these types of things in place and easily expanding later. Although, I would say that as more and more people reject traditional/analog methods for computerized ones, this probably will be less of an issue.

Someone somewhere is going to use something to do bad things, despite what the tool was originally created for. Might as well have background checks on kitchen knives or change them for our safety (which was suggested by someone, kitchen knives should be blunted).

I do agree that some people shouldn't have things (felonies/mental issues etc), however, it's kind of hard to argue safety for something when those very people don't actually otherwise controls things like they should.

Exactly. And, the cost of ghost guns is going up! The criminal will now be paying for someone not only make the gun, but also figure out how to bypass the software. You know somewhere there is a criminal computer mind thinking this is going to be his next business venture and it will make him rich LOL

Yes, people can do bad things with anything. Good example of the kitchen knife. I believe knife deaths rise when guns are banned. I remember watching a YouTube video about the 21' foot rule. If you allow an assailant to get within 21' feet of you with a knife, it is already too late to draw your gun.

Blunting the point...geez, any 10-year-old cub scout can grind down a nice point on a knife...and not because he's a criminal just because he can and it's "cool". My son made a sword in metals class out of scrap metal because it was "cool" and the teacher never even knew he made it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Yes, people can do bad things with anything. Good example of the kitchen knife. I believe knife deaths rise when guns are banned. I remember watching a YouTube video about the 21' foot rule. If you allow an assailant to get within 21' feet of you with a knife, it is already too late to draw your gun.

I think for cops they do about 25', although, depending on what else is going on with the person in question, I think reports say up to 32' is necessary to be able assess and start to compensate.

Blunting the point...geez, any 10-year-old cub scout can grind down a nice point on a knife...

Maybe back in the day, don't know so much now. But there are prisoners that can certain get some unique items shiv ready.

and not because he's a criminal just because he can and it's "cool". My son made a sword in metals class out of scrap metal because it was "cool" and the teacher never even knew he made it.

Now that's just criminal. No wonder we need the nanny state. Make sure we use items only as directed.

 

[John Miller]

A pencil jabbed into the temple will kill someone as sure as a knife or a gun.

 

[ikarasu]

I get why they’re doing it. Their main concern was terrorists could print undetectable guns - but terrorists won’t be buying USA printers, most of these printers come from China… it’s impossible to force them to put this software on it - and when they do… is it going to just be to monitor files, or will it be an excuse for them to have a camera that’s always on in every room?

Not to mention even if they do install this for every single printer, it’s going to take less than a week to bypass the software - since you know, most of these printers are running on open source software and there’s already communities who try customer firmware released… the first thing someone will do is bypass this.


So all this will do is at best annoy the legitimate users with false flags, and anyone who really wants to print a ghost gun will still be able to - like 90% of the stuff the government does, it hurts legitimate people and stops almost none of the illegitimate people.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I get why they’re doing it. Their main concern was terrorists could print undetectable guns - but terrorists won’t be buying USA printers, most of these printers come from China… it’s impossible to force them to put this software on it - and when they do… is it going to just be to monitor files, or will it be an excuse for them to have a camera that’s always on in every room?

Not to mention even if they do install this for every single printer, it’s going to take less than a week to bypass the software - since you know, most of these printers are running on open source software and there’s already communities who try customer firmware released… the first thing someone will do is bypass this.

More likely, there will be slicer constraints and quite a few slicers are actually just Electron (or webview) apps that has internet connectivity, so all of the critical code will be offsite. That's how things are done to get around right to repair in the automotive world right now.

There are actually people that put cameras on their printers for monitoring out of the room, so I imagine like most things, that would be sold as a "feature", probably a "safety feature" that would help them get the foot in the door. Ironically though, most people already have devices with always on cameras in every room with only "soft" ways to turn them off (which may not actually turn them off). Unfortunately for those on the younger side of things have really only known this, so it's normal.

Now, anything that is onsite (the hardware itself and if software is all local), sure at some point there will be a "patch" that may fix this. However, we are at the the point that most things are internet connected and if that connectivity is required for printing, that makes it harder if that logic is offsite, especially if that is crucial logic to even operate the printer/slicer with even desirable functions.

So all this will do is at best annoy the legitimate users with false flags, and anyone who really wants to print a ghost gun will still be able to - like 90% of the stuff the government does, it hurts legitimate people and stops almost none of the illegitimate people.

It really isn't about safety. That's just the foot in the door. That's the problem. They use emotion to push things thru and given how things are written to go into law, for most people it's TLDR and it always starts off broad in scope to see how much can get through before people complain, if they do. There is a very famous saying here in the states: "Those who would give up essential freedom to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Most people nowadays want to delegate to others that really don't care about any of that with regard to "you". But it's sold as otherwise.

 

[Stacey K]

I get why they’re doing it. Their main concern was terrorists could print undetectable guns - but terrorists won’t be buying USA printers, most of these printers come from China… it’s impossible to force them to put this software on it - and when they do… is it going to just be to monitor files, or will it be an excuse for them to have a camera that’s always on in every room?

Not to mention even if they do install this for every single printer, it’s going to take less than a week to bypass the software - since you know, most of these printers are running on open source software and there’s already communities who try customer firmware released… the first thing someone will do is bypass this.


So all this will do is at best annoy the legitimate users with false flags, and anyone who really wants to print a ghost gun will still be able to - like 90% of the stuff the government does, it hurts legitimate people and stops almost none of the illegitimate people.

100% agree with this

 

[Stacey K]

I just read that Luigi Mangione (the kid that killed Brian Thompson of United Healthcare) created and 3D printed a suppressor on the gun he used.

Problem is, no laws would be able to stop a guy like this. He has a bachelor-of-science in Engineering, computer engineering, a master-of-science in engineering in computer and information science, and undergraduate studies with a minor in math and graduate curriculum in AI. And a bunch of other stuff I'm too lazy to type. He would have gotten around that software in 5 minutes.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I just read that Luigi Mangione (the kid that killed Brian Thompson of United Healthcare) created and 3D printed a suppressor on the gun he used.

Problem is, no laws would be able to stop a guy like this. He has a bachelor-of-science in Engineering, computer engineering, a master-of-science in engineering in computer and information science, and undergraduate studies with a minor in math and graduate curriculum in AI. And a bunch of other stuff I'm too lazy to type. He would have gotten around that software in 5 minutes.

I read somewhere the guy that killed Shinzo used a make shift gun (now that's a country with quite robust anti-gun laws, imagine that). While I do think there were other guns there at the guy's place, some with 3D printed parts, the gun in question, I think was not in part or in whole 3D printed, but it's been a few yrs since that happened, so I can't remember.

3D printers don't have to be touched to create "ghost guns". People have been creating custom/unique guns for the right price long before that tech existed, at least at our pleb level anyway. It's just that's a platform that allows for quicker/easier control over and that's really what this is. Sold as safety, but just a measure of control. I wouldn't be surprised if parts will be on the no-no print list that could be used for repairs on machinery due to how right to repair is being handled here as well. Very easy to add to that list of flagged parts.

 

[Johnny Best]

my 8 year old grandson has a 3d printer. he does the leggo things. I am sure he will get into making a handgun when one of his friends finds out about it. getting the software will be the problem because that is what the government keeps close tabs on. It takes a long time to make something of that size.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

my 8 year old grandson has a 3d printer. he does the leggo things. I am sure he will get into making a handgun when one of his friends finds out about it. getting the software will be the problem because that is what the government keeps close tabs on. It takes a long time to make something of that size.

There are plenty of slicer programs now. Most won't be able to be compliant with having the locks in place in them for certain geometry, they would probably have to do like the OS projects have to do in the interim due to all that age attestation nonsense (which are pretty much the same states that are doing this, color me surprised), users in certain jurisdictions use these projects at your own risk (or they are locked out due to ISPs). Those that do, I would suspect would be the ones that rely on internet connections (gotta love the SaaS era that we live in now) and most of the critical logic will be server side. Shoot, it may not even exactly have to be within the slicer program, it could be heldwithin the 3D printer itself. There are already Pi setups to do this within a LAN, doesn't take too long to get that setup with a WAN setup and all integrated straight from the factory.

As far as the slicer programs that are out there now, I'm sure we will have a bunch of people downloading the source code and pre-compiled binaries to have a local archive of it.

The question is, would this apply to pre-built printers or if someone "custom builds" one like they would a computer in essence, get around this and be able to use those other slicers? Maybe for a time. I dunno.

 

[netsol]

i doubt a terrorist would have a US company deliver a 2026 model year 3d printer to their cave or tunnel
(wouldn't that be a bitch to back the truck up to
my stratasys weighs more than my Big GE side by side fridge
it isn't coming off an amazon truck, with a kid delivering it

 

[WildWestDesigns]

i doubt a terrorist would have a US company deliver a 2026 model year 3d printer to their cave or tunnel
(wouldn't that be a bitch to back the truck up to
my stratasys weighs more than my Big GE side by side fridge
it isn't coming off an amazon truck, with a kid delivering it

I highly doubt that those are going to be the target of these laws anyway. Typically they are consumer grade products, not industrial. So even if they did have one of those sent to their cave of choice, it wouldn't matter.

 

[netsol]

they did this to copiers 25 years ago
you can't copy currency, bearer bonds, etc
you simply use an older machine (the law firms went crazy for the first year or two, because detecting notary seals, etc made MANY documents forbidden that should not have been