laminate failure

[KevinA]

Im new here and know this has been discussed before but ive about had it with sheet lamination. Over the last 10 yrs ive tried several films and calendared overlaminates. Currently we are printing on General Formulations 222 and laminating with 290 G or Briteline. Im am giving customers an expected outdoor life of between 3 and 5 yrs and almost all look good at the 4 yr mark. After the 4 yr mark most start to look like they've been in a firefight. A slow fading would be fine but instead they become an ugly blight on the community! I have also noticed that darker colors that get hotter will age and become burnt looking sooner than lighter colors. Im attaching one 6yr old 4'x8' and a door decal that is almost 5. Note the top of the door decal is worse than the bottom. Im assuming the "roll" of the metal exposes the top half to more sun? Also note the condition of the paint under the decal. The letters have actually pitted the factory paint!
So what do I do? any suggestions or "heres what we did" would be appreciated.

 

[fresh]

I'm surprised that is happening with a cast laminate. What kind of printer do you use? How long do you wait between printing and laminating?

 

[Gino]

You do realize you are laminating over a 3 year outdoor life junk vinyl that is 6 mil ?? Laminate is not gonna protect something inferior underneath it.... and even at that..... 290 is only up to 4 years itself. This one or however many you have going bad, is on you and not knowing your products/medias.

 

[fresh]

3 year outdoor life junk vinyl that is 6 mil.

I missed the vinyl that was being used, and although I agree that OP isn't using the correct material, I disagree that its junk. I love 222, its got many great applications. But extended outdoor use is not one of them. Also, the main reason we use it is because its so easy to install unlaminated due to its thickness. why in the world would you laminate it?

 

[Gino]

For what he has been advertising it as, it's pure junk. Actually, he just misrepresented his products, in hopes he could/would stretch an unworthy media into something it isn't. It might have it's uses, but not as the OP is using it.

Just about any vinyl being sold has a use and some of them might be worthy, but that's not one we stock or would think of stocking. There are many others, far superior to that.... in the same price range.

 

[Snydo]

Expected exterior exposure of GF 222 is up to 3 years, in the deep south you may as well halve that. There are cheaper options that would have outperformed 222, 222 is a great product for many applications but not exterior signs. Also, you may want to try using matte or satin finish laminates, from what I've witnessed in a more northern climate it holds up better long term as far as UV burn and overall less cracking/peeling of the underlying vinyl.

 

[rockz12]

Wow! Looks like they are burning from within. Where are you located?

 

[KevinA]

I misspoke about the 290. That’s the cast that we use on window perf. I can’t remember the oracal lam. number that we use on the 222.
It’s ridiculous to say that laminate will not protect something inferior underneath it since we are using it to protect the ink from scratching but mainly harsh cleaners that damage and discolor the ink. I’ve used 222 for years in the harsh Florida sun and do not misrepresent it to anyone. 90% of what I use it on still looks good at 4 yrs and I “represent” it to last 3-5 yrs. I would say at least half still look good at 5 yrs unless they are laminated, which was the point of the post. When longer life is required, we have several other film and over laminate options on hand.
Quite honestly I do know my products and media Mr “Gino”. I match needs with products and do not misrepresent anything to anyone. Ever. I’ve been making signs in the same county for 40 years and I see most of my work weekly as I drive down the road. I keep up with how everything ages, weathers, fades and lasts. If you had read my original post instead of jumping to conclusions about me and my shop you would have noticed that all of the problems I’m experiencing with the laminate are after the signs have more than exceeded their “represented” life span. The issue is really how the laminate looks so terrible after it passes it’s expected life as opposed to a slow fading. Not one of my customers has complained about their sign not lasting as expected or surprisingly how bad they look in the years afterward. It just bothers me since I would much prefer the slow fade to the blow torch look.

Wow! Looks like they are burning from within. Where are you located?

North Florida

I'm surprised that is happening with a cast laminate. What kind of printer do you use? How long do you wait between printing and laminating?

 

[equippaint]

Oracal 210

 

[Christian @ Visual Graphx]

Vinyl products will burn just like you experience wether cast or calendared. My recommendation would be to move to a nonPVC product like 3M 8048 or the new Orafol Laminates.

As a producer in AZ, I could never feel comfortable giving anyone a expectancy of longer than 2 years.

 

[SheBeau]

This was discussed about 2 years ago and Tim Wright from Oracal calls it “Solvent Migration.” But some people think he’s full of BS. Idunno...
He is quoted in the fifth response at:
https://signs101.com/threads/laminate-turning-brown.145117/

 

[Gino]

I misspoke about the 290. That’s the cast that we use on window perf. I can’t remember the oracal lam. number that we use on the 222.
It’s ridiculous to say that laminate will not protect something inferior underneath it since we are using it to protect the ink from scratching but mainly harsh cleaners that damage and discolor the ink. I’ve used 222 for years in the harsh Florida sun and do not misrepresent it to anyone. 90% of what I use it on still looks good at 4 yrs and I “represent” it to last 3-5 yrs. I would say at least half still look good at 5 yrs unless they are laminated, which was the point of the post. When longer life is required, we have several other film and over laminate options on hand.
Quite honestly I do know my products and media Mr “Gino”. I match needs with products and do not misrepresent anything to anyone. Ever. I’ve been making signs in the same county for 40 years and I see most of my work weekly as I drive down the road. I keep up with how everything ages, weathers, fades and lasts. If you had read my original post instead of jumping to conclusions about me and my shop you would have noticed that all of the problems I’m experiencing with the laminate are after the signs have more than exceeded their “represented” life span. The issue is really how the laminate looks so terrible after it passes it’s expected life as opposed to a slow fading. Not one of my customers has complained about their sign not lasting as expected or surprisingly how bad they look in the years afterward. It just bothers me since I would much prefer the slow fade to the blow torch look.

North Florida

This is good.... really good. You're the new kid on the block and you give us wrong information and get p!ssed off when shown the error in your ways.. Not to mention, regardless of how long you've been doing this, why would you tell someone a product which is rated UP TO THREE YEARS, would be expected to have a warranty of 3 to 5 years ?? It's not ridiculous to say the things I said, anymore than the things YOU think or say. It's quite evident you need to go back and re-read your media/product information details and familiarize yourself with them, so you don't misrepresent yourself anymore. Getting upset with me doesn't do a thing for your incompetence. It's running rampant in your jobs, so it must be something you're doing wrong..... not me for pointing it out.

Perhaps, it is the Florida sun, and all these signs face due south, but then again, is up top you to figure out before matching up the wrong products/media, huh ??

• One last thing..... if you are indeed using the laminate as a protector against harsh solvents/cleaners and being scratched, why are you upset or even bringing any of this up, when it has nothing to do with why you use it ??

 

[SheBeau]

Apparently Oracal's life warranty goes down the more southern you are.

 

[HulkSmash]

I'm not exactly sure why you're mad at Gino. You're using 130 dollar a roll lam and expecting it to last 100 years. Stop being cheap use cast vinyl and lam for long term outdoor ANYTHING.

 

[ddarlak]

Mr “Gino”

I find that blocking Mr. Gino has made Signs101 more enjoyable.

 

[Gino]

For me, too. It's tough dealing with low-brows. Maybe you can talk him into joining you, darla............

 

[Gino]

Ahhh........ he won't see this. Someone's gonna hafta quote me, so he knows about it.

 

[HulkSmash]

For me, too. It's tough dealing with low-brows. Maybe you can talk him into joining you, darla............

like this?

 

[Gino]

ah-hyuck................ yup !!

 

[Johnny Best]

Especially when they steal your women and food.