laser Engraver questions...

[Biker Scout]

I completely agree with what you are saying. There are better tools for certain jobs. I mean, the business really has to know what they are offering. If I were a walk-in shop that offered trophy and plaque engraving, then maybe I'd want a higher resolution machine. http://www.thunderlaser.com/products/laser-accessories/198-high-resolution-head.html
Those guys are right out of china, and to me do everything I could even think I'd need a machine to do. At 1/3rd the price.

I just want to end my point that those of you who think this stuff is a mystery and should only be left to the large corporate conglomerates to manufacture and distribute and provide support are sadly mistaken. All these XYZ machines are simple. Parts are easy to find. Support is as easy as heading on over to CNCZone.com

This is a new golden age of fabrication, ideas, growth and DIY'ers taking over the world! Just look at the explosion of 3D Printers, and more and more are coming out everyday! A lot of them made by regular people, not corporations based in Austria with 30 worldwide distribution centers and a myriad of authorized resellers. Of course they have to charge as much as they do for their machines... look at their operations and overhead. The only reason to pay a premium for stuff like this is if you are a large company and want to make a purchase, plug it in and hit print/cut/route and it's done. Software being intuitive for an employee to figure out. Service techs to come when you call. I TOTALLY GET THAT!

But my business is just me with a few extra hands when I need them. I can handle messing around changing out a recti tube every few years.

This guy built his own CNC Laser with nothing more that Dibond and T-Slots.
https://plus.google.com/photos/+RobFlickenger/albums/5831277065903483537
http://hackerfriendly.com/diy-laser-part-2-the-skin/
http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-laser-that-cuts-sheet-metal/

Some of us are handy and like tinkering. It helps us understand and service our machines. The only things I'm looking for when I buy a laser is: Auto Focus, 4th Axis ready, Honeycomb Table, Motorized Lifting Table and if they offer a couple of different resolution heads for a finer laser point.

Would I like one with software that plugs in like a printer driver? Of course... but I've used many machines that are only G-Code compatible, where you have to import your cut file and hope for the best. But many of the machines on the market are offering better software than in years past. There's even many well known CAM programs that can run a generic XYV table with just a little bit of set-up on my part. No big deal.

EDIT: Oh, and the only machines on my shopping list are at least 48X36 in size.

 

[Biker Scout]

I have a flame polishing set-up already. BUT... I'd really love to see a laser table example where the edges weren't satisfactory? I've never seen that, even on the 12 samples I have on my desk from many manufacturers. Even FSL sample looks the same as the Epilog sample.

However, I do know that you can't cut polycarbonate with a laser. At heat, it turns into a rubbery substance and leaves crappy burned edges. I've known at least one company that shows an image of come clear cut acrylic on their machine, vs their competitors machine with a crappy burned edge. I knew right off the bat they were scheisters and lying. Because they were showing a polycarbonate lasered edge.

 

[Biker Scout]

Here's something I did to pair down the choices in Laser machines I was interested in. I sent in a file for them to cut on a piece of 3/8" acrylic. One of them in this sample is Epilog. Care to guess which one? And one of them is an import machine. Now, having the actual samples in my hand... why would I pay more than double to get what I want?

Now I've seen better edges, but a lot of that has to do with power, speed, air assist etc. Crappy stepper motors, user error among other things can greatly change the outcome of a cut part.

Kernlasers.com supposedly has a special lens just for thicker Acrylic that results in a glass smooth edge. Worth looking into.

 

[Biker Scout]

Now if I only wanted to just cut acrylic with a glass smooth edge, I can with the proper bit. It just happens to be $2400. Saw the bit at the sign show, fell in love. Went home, looked at price and said I'll bet I can find a better option for that kind of money. What happens if that bit breaks, or I drop it out of the spindle, or I send a code over that makes the bit crash into something unexpectedly? A $2400 disaster... that's what!

http://store.multicam.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=95-00123-00

Which is half of what an import laser machine costs. And if I had that in-house I could do a few more things with it, than just one bit can do for me. I can live with the quality right now, because most of the stuff we are doing is cutting acrylic letters that go into channel letters. So you never see the edges anyway. And push-thru lettering (which the expensive bit would be fantastic) but my clients aren't looking that close at the edge of the lettering, especially after we light up the signs anyway.

 

[CES020]

You haven't seen better examples because you don't have a sample from Trotec. They spearheaded the efforts to cut bezier curves through their driver. No one else was doing it. It's crystal clear edges. I've tried to take about 5 photos, but they are so clear, I can't get them to show up via my camera phone.

I understand your point. I'm a tinkerer too. I have a 3D printer here, stacks of Arduino's, Raspberry Pi's, and the likes. I've got the boards and motors all here to build a CNC something one day. We've already got a router, so I don't need another one of those.

I'd reject the samples you have in your hand, if they were coming out of our shop.

You keep harping on price. If you want to go that route, we can. What good is buying a machine that is 1/5th the price, when it's also 1/5 as productive? Do the math, we get paid when the machine runs. The quicker the job is done, the more we make. If I were to save money to get a slower machine, I'd be making less money when I did jobs. After about 6 months, I'd bury you on money I've made, now carry that out a couple years and it really makes a difference.

We had a customer want 25,000 pieces cut several months ago. They gave us about 14 days to do it. We worked 7 days a week to get it done on time. If we had a slower machine, we couldn't have met the deadline and we wouldn't have gotten the job. There's so much more to consider when buying a machine other than price. You have to consider the value of it.

I cut $4,000 worth of acrylic last week. If I had to sand an polish all those edges, I'd be on the job for 2 more weeks.

If you're happy with a Chinese machine, more power to you, but there is a world of difference in Chinese lasers and Western lasers. HUGE differences.

 

[Biker Scout]

Naturally... I agree again. But it's up to the individual shop to determine what their needs are. For me, I'm not busy like that and I'd never cut 25,000 of anything. I don't care to nor look for those jobs. I hate cutting out vinyl for anything more than 10 of something.

Speed is everything for sure when it comes to time and money and output capabilities. But in regards to the OP wanting to get their feet wet, I see no reason why a decent entry level machine couldn't help them figure out if it's something they need or can grow into a larger better machine. (At least that's the way I buy machines. I get a ShopMaster CNC Mill/Lathe combo now... then if it turns into more than just tinkering, splurge and get a Mazak or Datron CNC)

And yeah, I rejected those 3 samples, because I've got better ones. I just wanted to show that FSL/Super Cheap Import/Epilog yielded similar results on the exact same file and materials.

Right now, like a lot of you, I'm just expanding my "In-House Capabilities" by obtaining new equipment all the time. Eventually, when money allows, I always "buy-up" and have the first machine still around as back-up, if they are still working.

 

[Biker Scout]

If I got a Trotec, I'd want the SP1500 / 400W. How much would that sent me back?
(59" x 49" cutting surface)

They don't list their price because they still operate under the old world pricing structure. Where they want me to go and visit a demo showroom and talk with a sales rep. Yuck!

 

[CES020]

If I got a Trotec, I'd want the SP1500 / 400W. How much would that sent me back?
(59" x 49" cutting surface)

They don't list their price because they still operate under the old world pricing structure. Where they want me to go and visit a demo showroom and talk with a sales rep. Yuck!

I have no idea, but I don't know of one of those in the USA. What would you use 400W for? There's not much in the sign work that would need 400W.

My guess is a machine like that would be $250,000. I'd probably go for a Kern if I needed a large bed like that.

We started making nothing but signs with the laser and now, we are really a job shop with our lasers. We see so much different stuff, and most of it is not sign related. Friday we lasered 1/2" clear acrylic, 3/8" clear acrylic, Mahogany, Pine, Holly, various engraving plastics, a piece of Cyprus, 3 plywood crate sides for a marketing campaign, anodized aluminum, and a piece of stainless steel. So we see a really wide variety of things every week, which is really interesting as we're always learning something new or getting exposed to things we've never known about before.

 

[Biker Scout]

So I stroll on over to Synrad (Makers of high quality sealed metal laser tubes) and they want $10,500 for 125W tube!

A little more digging around on their site, they have some published findings about cutting acrylic. Says that even a 25W laser can cut 1" thick piece. But the quality of the cut really is more about the length of the lens and getting the focal point more or less in the middle of the substrate. And that was published in 1999. Not much has changed.

And 400W is the minimum needed to be able to cut even thin aluminum. (assisting with nitrogen of course)

See these discussions are good for people reading the pros and cons of these machines.

 

[CES020]

Our Trotec has a Synrad tube. Their website is incredible as far as information goes. I look at it weekly for something, just to learn things.

You can cut thicker acrylics as long as they are clear. The beam is shaped like an hourglass, so it's tapered and it has a sweet spot where the beam's power density is the greatest and the focal point is the smallest. As the cut gets further out of focus, the beam gets larger, and the power density decreases, meaning you can't cut as fast or as clean, since the beam is getting fatter and less powerful.

Clear acrylic acts as a wave guide and sort of carries the beam through the work a lot more than it ever would if the material wasn't clear. So clear acrylic is about as good as it gets for testing things like that. Put some color into it and it all falls apart because it doesn't act as a wave guide. I've cut 1/2" clear acrylic on our 45W laser, but you'd be hard pressed to cut 3/8" black on it. Our 75W cuts 1/2" clear nicely.

In general, 80-120W should be a good place for a sign shop. With 80W you could cut 3/8" colored acrylics and 1/2" clear at a decent pace.

I do believe lasers are one of the most overlooked tools by sign shops. They have a lot of potential in a sign shop. There's a lot to be said for making your own acrylic letters for company logos in lobbies. Not having to pay Gemini prices or wait for their painfully slow processes to work means you can beat all the competition on delivery dates. It's awesome when you quote a job with 7 days turn around when all the franchises are quoting 3 weeks because they come from Gemini That's sold a lot of jobs for us.

 

[Biker Scout]

That's mainly what I outsource my laser work for. Letters.

However, I also do lots of prototypes and mock-ups of all kinds. Some are for paying clients, some are just me playing around. I can't outsource those of course.

When I finally pulled the trigger on a 12x18 laser printer, it opened up huge amounts of work for me. Since I do a lot of package design in my line of work, it has helped tremendously. It also allows me to save on inkjet cartridges, and I can proof things out for my clients now, much more accurately. But I still send stuff off to the packaging companies for production or for print work to 4Over when they approve. I would never start trying to 1000+ business cards in-house just because I can. That's too much work for something that costs me next to nothing.

Same thing about getting a laser table. I'll cut the letters I'm already outsourcing... but the other stuff I can do with a laser would be the equivalent of proofing and prototyping. I'm sure there are plenty of larger "Job Shops" with better lasers to do large quantity work, and I'd be more than happy to tap when the time comes. But in the meantime, price still counts. If it didn't this forum wouldn't exist. Sign shop owners would just call up tech support and pay whatever it takes to get their machines back up and running. There wouldn't be a huge 3rd party ink demand if price didn't count. Everyone would use Dibond brand instead of PolyMetal. And No one would ever buy from MediaOne because 3M would all they ever needed. And pricing threads wouldn't erupt into a frenzy when someone says out loud they can get banners retail for $1.50 sq.ft. Price does matter.

But you are right, there are pros and cons... and I think being honest about what one's needs really are vs. their disposable income and potential job market growth is good for the industry as well as the small sign shop. I'm only trying to be reasonable with pricing logic and show there are other avenues to go down, that don't necessarily have to lead to "buying the best and only the best... otherwise don't bother" mentality. There is a market for $5000 laser cutter/engravers. Otherwise they wouldn't be selling. Some are crap, some are gems (think Harbor Freight). I think it's OK to talk about them as viable options until finances permit otherwise.

 

[Biker Scout]

Digging around the bowls of the interwebs, I came across buildlog.net an open source resource for building CNC stuff.

(This is the same guy who used kickstarter to successfully fund the extrusions called MakerSlide V-Rail compatible with T-Slots and 8020 extrusions)

Anyway, all the minor components to build your own laser about $400 http://www.buildlog.net/cnc_laser/kits.html
Looks like a fun project to me.

 

[fixtureman]

So you are saying 130W beam of light is somehow different depending on where it's made? We are not talking about the quality of the mirrors, or the controlling software. I'm talking about the wavelength of light.

Full Spectrum Laser (http://fslaser.com/) is a very reputable company in the Laser Marking/Engraving industry. They produce machines on par if not better than the larger companies like Epilog et al. I've spoken at length with the president there, and found out some interesting things about lasers, the machines and where they originate. The bells and whistles really come from the controlling software, and the kind of motors they use (steppers vs servo)

Now after mentioning that company, I can tell you while they offer great machines at a very reasonable price. BUT I can still get the same quality machine at even half of what they are charging. Plus some extras. I've got the laser cut samples from about a dozen different manufacturers sitting here on my desk. Unless I told you who they were made by, you'd not t

My only need for a laser is to cut up to 1" thick acrylic for letters. They all (80W - 130W) do that, and more.

You say Full Spectrum is a Repuatable company that produces lasers on par with other machines when in fact they import them from China. Just do a google seach and see how great that company is. You also state that a beam of light is the same but again you are wrong the are differnt wave lengths that different laser tube are capable of producing some can cut metal and some can not. As for a large tube over 80 watts engraving starts to degrade. You also stated that you had 2 samples and you thought 1 was acrylic and the other polycarbonate you may be wrong again they may both be acylic but cast cuts very nice and extruded gives a crappy cut

 

[GB2]

Regarding the original post....I've felt the same way about lasers, they are very intriguing and it seems that if you get one you will start to offer things in that market that will make it worthwhile. I have noticed however, that there seems to be a lot of lasers in the field and that profit on laser produced items is minimal. You really need a specific use for it or have to have a very creative use for it to generate a substantial profit otherwise your just doing what everybody else is doing. I've looked at all the brands at two trade shows in the last year and though I don't recall all the details, I know that I was most impressed by the Universal lasers. If I'm not mistaken, they are the only company that manufactures their own laser tubes and they seemed to have other advantages over the other brands. They can be a significant investment and I would definitely not get an "entry model", I would wait and get the largest, highest wattage unit possible in my budget. The pass through is a nice feature too and opens the market to larger commercial, architectural type applications. I would definitely suggest that you attend a trade show where you can see all the models together in one place and really examine and compare them to make an educated decision for yourself.

 

[CES020]

I have noticed however, that there seems to be a lot of lasers in the field and that profit on laser produced items is minimal. You really need a specific use for it or have to have a very creative use for it to generate a substantial profit otherwise your just doing what everybody else is doing.

I think that's true if you go with the typically engraved stuff. People tend to think about engraving as "Trophy Plates". That's a side of the market that fights over a penny. We don't compete in that market. It's not uncommon for our lasers to make $300-400 per hour. They can be real money makers, but, as you mentioned, you have to get the right work. You can find it, but the lasers are so fast, they will eat up some work, so you have to have a lot of work to keep them running all the time. After 7-8 years with lasers, our lasers still don't run every day.

Universal makes an excellent laser. I think Epilog took their tubes in house now too, so Epilog and Universal are both making their own tubes now. I think you would be in good shape if you picked any of the name brand machines. They all offer free tech support for life, they will all next day air you parts if you have issues.

 

[2B]

What is the difference between a sealed tube and a refillable tube?

on the sealed tube what is the typical life expectancy?

 

[CES020]

I haven't heard them specified like that before, but I assume it means the difference in a metal tube and a glass tube. Glass tubes are old technology for the most part, in the machines you'd use in the sign world. They haven't been used much in a decade or more in current machines. However, the Chinese machines use them extensively. They are a lot cheaper, you need a water cooling system (usually a tub with a aquarium pump in it), and they are at the low end of machine a laser. The beam quality is fair, and they say they the life is high in hours, but I think the hours start the minute it's sealed. So if it sits on the shelf for a year, it's lost those hours of it's life. Many people that buy Chinese lasers buy an extra glass tube to have on hand. I haven't seen them lasting really long periods of time from all accounts I have seen. That's not saying someone won't pop in and say "My glass tube has lasted 4 years....", but overall, if you read issues people have and what people are getting out of them, it's no where near what's being told.

On the other hand, metal tube lasers which can be refilled tend to last a long time. I have a chart from one of the laser manufacturers and it shows the average live of a tube being about 5-7 years then they need replacing. When you replace them, you order another one, they send you a refilled laser cartridge, and you send your old one to them as a core. The beam quality in this type of tube is superior in every way to the lesser glass tubes. If it wasn't, we'd still being using glass tubes in everything!

The difference most people see is price. You can probably buy a new glass tube for $300 or so. It'll cost you $1200 or more to have a tube recharged. It's based on watts, so a 45W might be $1200, where a 120W will be a lot more than that.