Suggestions Looking At Buying A 2 New Printers The Age Old Question Latex Vs Eco-sol

[AKwrapguy]

Hello everyone,
The time has come for us to finally upgrade our printers from the HP 8000s's. We are currently in the market for two 64 inch printers for our shop. Currently we do everything from vehicle wraps, stickers, signs, banners, back lite signs, posters, etc... pretty much everything that you can do, as well as printing on you typical array of materials from 3M (IJ180Cv3, 3560-10, 3650-114, 3290, 680 CR are probably the bulk of what I print on) as well as a few sporadic other such as assorted banner material, Dreamscape wall paper, and Phototex,

While we're not a 'high volume' shop we are one of the highest volume shops in the state and do go through a decent amount of material.

We're currently using Flexi as our rip software as well as some basic design, I don't see this changing.
We have a GraphTec plotter for all our cutting needs.

We're at a cross road, as each has it's pro's and con's and I would really like to get any type of incite from users of each.

The printers we're looking at are the HP Latex 570 and the Roland Soljet EJ 640

One more thing to throw in the mix is the fact that I live in Alaska and tech support/training replacement parts can be... tricky since I think that we have one guy for the whole state.

Any information would be awesome. Thank you very much.

 

[BigfishDM]

I think Latex will be the way, I can hook you up in Alaska also. You can do more applications with Latex and they are pretty cost effective machines vs just about all the others. Call me if you would like more info on what can be done with latex cause I can go on forever. 714-878-7989 Josh

 

[printhog]

I'd look at the consumables associated with printer maintenance for the first three years. Request a list from each vendor to compare. The two machines have different maintenance schedules and parts. My initial thought is that HP will be costlier in parts over time, and youre completely tied to their inks.

Roland may void warranty if you go aftermarket inks, but they are available and savings are tremendous if you use a bulk ink setup. (Like below $.08 PSF). Roland heads are very robust, but can be pricey.

If your daily volume is over 600 sq ft, then drying issues are going to affect any eco solvent. Latex dries faster.

If your volume is over 800 sq ft per day consistently, then a used 3 meter HP or similar solvent machine would be the choice, and keep one of your old machines for backup. They're out there at around $40k. I know a guy I can refer you to.






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[AKwrapguy]

I think that in our busy summer months your looking at about 300-400 sqft daily, winter your looking at more 400-500 sqft weekly.

 

[printhog]

At that volume the dry time isn't much of an issue, but can be an inconvenience. Latex dries fast, prints look incredible, goes on lots of media, can be laminated immediately, and the machines parts are cheap. But those parts also wear out faster as volume climbs, there's specific maintenance issues that you can't fool the machine out of, and the latex machines are locked into HP ink. (The old give you the razor, sell you the blades for life model).

I'd definitely ask the HP rep about the shot counts the heads can handle. My repro guy had that info on the HP he was trying to sell me. It seemed like the heads are very short life products, I think it was under 3000 sq ft per set. I know my z series killed heads at about 4 rolls with aqueous inks. It was a $1200 expense plus a maintenance cartridge for another $80. Basically almost $.40 PSF hidden expense..

My Roland is on 6 years on its 6 $900 heads.

 

[Bly]

We change heads after they've done 3 litres of ink whether they still seem fine or not.
They are consumables and need to be factored into your cost psf of printing, along with the printhead cleaning kits.
I did work it out when we bought our first one & they weren't much different costwise to run than a Roland for ink etc.

Despite the fact they waste a bit of media to load and the occasional colour repeatability issues I wouldn't go back to ecosol.
Load a roll, press print and you really can walk away with confidence you'll come back to a perfectly printed roll.

 

[AKwrapguy]

You guys bring up some great point. What about from an installers perspective? Has anyone noticed a difference between installing eco-sol vinyl vs latex vinyl? Has anyone had issues or seen a difference with longevity of color, or life of the material?

 

[FatCat]

We have a pair of Mutoh 1624's, both are good machines, print wonderfully IMHO and because we use bulk ink from STS are costs are down to less than .09¢/ml vs .35¢/ml for OEM. That and a few other things keep us happy to run solvent for now.

Now, at some point down the road we might look into latex, but some of the issues I see are that you are tied to HP consumables without any alternatives. If they decide to double the price of ink or printheads one day, just because, then you're stuck. Also, much depends on how/what you print. I have been told that every time you load a roll on an HP latex machine you waste 2-3 yards of material to get it started on the take-up. We do a lot of switching on our machines and rely on fast turn-around for many of our customers. Its rare that we just throw a roll on and print it to the end unless we're doing a large wrap project or wall mural, etc. So we may print 10 yards of intermediate, then do 20 yards of banner, then switch to 10 yards of wrap vinyl for some vehicle decals, etc. So in the course of a day you have to factor that waste in as a cost of doing business. Also, I see a lot of threads complaining about color consistency on the latex machines. Especially when running a lot of solids, like if you were to wrap a semi trailer in all blue and after the 5th or 6th panel, the machine recalibrates itself and then the color is slightly off... Those things cause me concern, but truth is we are still probably 2-3 years away from buying another roll-to-roll printer so Im hoping by that time the latex machines will be dialed in a little better and those issues will be fixed.

Lastly, I would also look into Mimaki if you were ready to buy now. Their fiscal year ends in March, and they have some really aggressive deals going on right now. I believe I saw their 64" 150-machine was priced around $10,995? And they had deals on their faster 300 series machines too.

Just my .02¢

 

[Bly]

HP Latex printers waste about 2 feet of media to load. You just need to feed enough so it doesn't buckle up and head strike.

 

[bannertime]

HP Latex printers waste about 2 feet of media to load. You just need to feed enough so it doesn't buckle up and head strike.

The only material I have to roll out a couple feet is window perf. Banner, self adhesives, reflective, static cling, and low tac wall materials all print fine without. On those rolls I loose about 6in every new load. So like 30 cents.

 

[AKwrapguy]

From the info that I have read, it sounds like the Eco-Solvent seems to be the way to go right now. While Latex printers are awesome, it sounds like their just not 'there' yet and might need a little more time to mature to fix some of the issues that I've read about such as the color inconsistency, the lack of third party support, the consumables, etc..

My boss has now brought up the new Roland VG series with True Vis ink. I know that this printer is new to the market but has anyone had any experience with this? Is the new ink worth it? I was told that here were issue with head strikes destroying print heads... has anyone else heard about this or dealt with it. How does it compare to the EJ 640 Soljet?

 

[customquint]

I just made the switch. We went to the HP 335. Had an older Roland SP540.

Other than a few little issues I love the change. Best choice I've made. Love the fact that the inknis cured. Example this morning. Printed 2 2x8 translucent panels. Printed in a few minutes. Straight to the laminator and mounted to the acrylic. Had a little over 30 min In the whole job. All done at once. No waiting.

 

[Behrmon]

We are a muliple EcoSolvent shop, there are many great points made for both Latex and EcoSolvent and against both. We will be switching all together or adding latex machines at some point as our turnover time demands a quicker thruput.

 

[Mal Ross]

Hello everyone,
The time has come for us to finally upgrade our printers from the HP 8000s's. We are currently in the market for two 64 inch printers for our shop. Currently we do everything from vehicle wraps, stickers, signs, banners, back lite signs, posters, etc... pretty much everything that you can do, as well as printing on you typical array of materials from 3M (IJ180Cv3, 3560-10, 3650-114, 3290, 680 CR are probably the bulk of what I print on) as well as a few sporadic other such as assorted banner material, Dreamscape wall paper, and Phototex,

No age old question mate its logically only one HP
I have a HP2600.. 2 yrs old... A fantastic machine..perfect prints , far superior to Roland or Mimaki...for that matter all solvent and eco(economy NOT ecological that's bull) inks. I had a Mimaki ecosol for 6 yrs and I know it made me sick. Solvent is a killer.
Only use those printers in extremely well ventilated areas...with a 3M respirator !!!
HP Latex is green clean and no out gassing of poisons for you and your clients to breath
Heads are one third the price and can be replaced easily. Save a fortune on heads and Techs in 12 months
Dry immediately and can be laminated(if needed) straight from the printer. If you need a reprint its ready in 5min to redo (impossible with poison solvents)
Does not use much more power (contrary to opposition fake news)
Prints on heaps of media
I have signs outdoors and on the back window of my van UN lamintated and still perfect after 4 yrs in the strong sun of Queensland Aus.
HP techs and service people are great, available and competent
As HP say..."We are partners not box droppers"

Having said all that, after 40 yrs in the business and still use my Gerber Edge and of course love my HP2600
I had a Roland water based that had to be laminated after every job 15 years ago....
Those prints lasted 11 years on huge car park signs at Australia's most Easterly point, Byron Bay in direct sun under most extreme conditions
Vinyl and laminate was Oracal back then...just sayin...water based inks are FAR superior not just good longevity but a SAFER work environment
..............shit talk about Asbestos............

 

[Malardalensbildekor]

We have a pair of Mutoh 1624's, both are good machines, print wonderfully IMHO and because we use bulk ink from STS are costs are down to less than .09¢/ml vs .35¢/ml for OEM. That and a few other things keep us happy to run solvent for now.

Now, at some point down the road we might look into latex, but some of the issues I see are that you are tied to HP consumables without any alternatives. If they decide to double the price of ink or printheads one day, just because, then you're stuck. Also, much depends on how/what you print. I have been told that every time you load a roll on an HP latex machine you waste 2-3 yards of material to get it started on the take-up. We do a lot of switching on our machines and rely on fast turn-around for many of our customers. Its rare that we just throw a roll on and print it to the end unless we're doing a large wrap project or wall mural, etc. So we may print 10 yards of intermediate, then do 20 yards of banner, then switch to 10 yards of wrap vinyl for some vehicle decals, etc. So in the course of a day you have to factor that waste in as a cost of doing business. Also, I see a lot of threads complaining about color consistency on the latex machines. Especially when running a lot of solids, like if you were to wrap a semi trailer in all blue and after the 5th or 6th panel, the machine recalibrates itself and then the color is slightly off... Those things cause me concern, but truth is we are still probably 2-3 years away from buying another roll-to-roll printer so Im hoping by that time the latex machines will be dialed in a little better and those issues will be fixed.

Lastly, I would also look into Mimaki if you were ready to buy now. Their fiscal year ends in March, and they have some really aggressive deals going on right now. I believe I saw their 64" 150-machine was priced around $10,995? And they had deals on their faster 300 series machines too.

Just my .02¢

MIMAKI Mild solvent inks is not good, loose color very quickly, my closest competitor using Mimaki and the Mild Solvent inks, myself im using Roland and eco-sol max 2 inks, i had may customer coming to me complaining about my competitors banners that fade, they have change banners 3 times in one summer because of fading, I told the customer that you can always try out my banners, i can not garantee that it wont fade like my competitors banners. They desided to try my banners out, my banners held up much longer than my competitors banners sitting on the same spot as theres, now i have many returning customers just because of this....

 

[sonia]

Hello everyone,
The time has come for us to finally upgrade our printers from the HP 8000s's. We are currently in the market for two 64 inch printers for our shop. Currently we do everything from vehicle wraps, stickers, signs, banners, back lite signs, posters, etc... pretty much everything that you can do, as well as printing on you typical array of materials from 3M (IJ180Cv3, 3560-10, 3650-114, 3290, 680 CR are probably the bulk of what I print on) as well as a few sporadic other such as assorted banner material, Dreamscape wall paper, and Phototex,

While we're not a 'high volume' shop we are one of the highest volume shops in the state and do go through a decent amount of material.

We're currently using Flexi as our rip software as well as some basic design, I don't see this changing.
We have a GraphTec plotter for all our cutting needs.

We're at a cross road, as each has it's pro's and con's and I would really like to get any type of incite from users of each.

The printers we're looking at are the HP Latex 570 and the Roland Soljet EJ 640

One more thing to throw in the mix is the fact that I live in Alaska and tech support/training replacement parts can be... tricky since I think that we have one guy for the whole state.

Any information would be awesome. Thank you very much.

Hi! I can recomen this article to read, before tacking any decision:
HP Latex vs Eco-Solvent: 5 Things to Compare Before You Buy

 

[TEN]

Eco-Sol Roland for 4.5 years, added an HP 360 Latex. Now we print 95% Latex / 5% Eco Sol. Colors are so much better. Still need Roland for contour cutting and white ink situations. Latex requires (2) 220 circuits - 16A per circuit - double check that. We have been running Latex in late fall and winter, it does produce noticeable heat for the curing process.

HP provides some detailed specs as far as print costs which includes the replacement print heads and ink sets and maintenance drawer kit. We have had zero issues so far with Latex, in fact it has solved some issues.

 

[ColoPrinthead]

Hi! I can recomen this article to read, before tacking any decision:
HP Latex vs Eco-Solvent: 5 Things to Compare Before You Buy

take into account that you will need to change on average 1-2 print heads per year on an eco-solvent printer in order to keep the original print quality during its life.[/B]

Sounds like quite an exageratioin to me.

 

[GB2]

Latex printers are definitely "there". Latex has many more advantages than solvent, I'd never go back to solvent and Flexi is the perfect RIP for HP. Also, if you are concerned about service in Alaska, you can order just about every single part for the HP latex machines and service it yourself...as long as you have the service manual it's an easy task.

 

[Fares Bayazeed]

If you do a lot of wraps latex has the best overall color gamut. You are wrong about the inks on the HP - There are good alternatives in OEM compatible latex - And they really are compatible. And don't let anybody tell you that you have to use OEM inks (MAGNUSON-MOSS). The eco-sol, excellent printers in the lines that have been mentioned. If you do have the time to let them sit the right amount of time the cost per square foot is less. With latex generally, more of the media needs special coatings when you get into vinyl and poly media. Coatings do increase cost, not the base media. Flexi is my program of choice and it works well on our HP 360 as well as the five eco-sols we run. In Alaska, I do understand what you are saying about the techs. The Solvent printer is going to need less maintenance and upkeep as a rule. If you are getting two printers why not get one of each!?! The best of all worlds;-)