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mutoh or latex?
- Thread starter Wraps ink
- Start date
rjssigns
Active Member
Nothing like opening a can of worms.LOL
If it were me I'd stick with eco-solvent. It's a mature technology that holds very few surprises. Latex(H-P in particular) is always coming out with something new. I am not a fan of this this stair stepping of tech. End users manage to find the glitches that lab conditions can't duplicate. Best service plan in the world is one you never have to use.
Also it does not bother me if I can't laminate right away.
Another benefit to eco-sol is the ability to buy bulk ink if you are so inclined.
As with anything you will have people loyal to one or the other.
FrankW
New Member
Since the latest Latex 300-printers are on the market, there is no reason anymore to buy a 4-Color-Eco-Solvent. You can print a wider range of media with a latex (e. g. several different papers/wallpapers, cotton canvas and textiles), the prints are much more scratch resistant than with eco-solvent (chemical resistance too), the ink itself is cheaper than most of the original eco-solvent-inks, there are a lot of standard profiles for a lot of media available (more than 400, Avery, 3M, MacTac and so on), every profile can be used with EVERY RIP which is compatible with the printers, an easy way to fix colour problems by re-linearize the profiles (310/330) or do a complete re-calibration (360) in the machine without any additional equipment and software, lot of easy maintenance tasks which would take a lot of time and a trained technician on eco-solvent printers and so on.
I'm in the printer maintenance and sales business since 1997, have worked with roland and mutoh for a long time, since 2012 with latex ... can't remember when the last time a machine have impressed my similar to the new latex 300-Series.
I'm in the printer maintenance and sales business since 1997, have worked with roland and mutoh for a long time, since 2012 with latex ... can't remember when the last time a machine have impressed my similar to the new latex 300-Series.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
Neither, Get a Roland!
From what I have seen/heard, the HP latex machines are great machines, when they are printing, but they seem to be finicky machines who freak out over the smallest abnormality in conditions.
As for maintenance, I may be in the minority here, but I only clean my Roland about once every other month, still prints like brand new after 2 years.
Personally I don't want a printer that thinks it knows better than me.
With outgassing, we laminate a lot of our stuff within 3-4 hours of it coming off the printer, never had an issue in 9 years of eco-sol printing. Having said that if the print is full coverage, we will let it sit until morning before laminating, keep in mind we don't print wraps, which is where a lot of outgassing issues seem to be.
From what I have seen/heard, the HP latex machines are great machines, when they are printing, but they seem to be finicky machines who freak out over the smallest abnormality in conditions.
As for maintenance, I may be in the minority here, but I only clean my Roland about once every other month, still prints like brand new after 2 years.
Personally I don't want a printer that thinks it knows better than me.
With outgassing, we laminate a lot of our stuff within 3-4 hours of it coming off the printer, never had an issue in 9 years of eco-sol printing. Having said that if the print is full coverage, we will let it sit until morning before laminating, keep in mind we don't print wraps, which is where a lot of outgassing issues seem to be.
P Wagner
--
I think that it is save to assume that human nature is that we all tend to like and recommend what we are used to using and will recommend it.
My advice (worth what you paid for it) is for the OP (or anyone else who comes across this thread going forward with similar questions) to look at the HP forum, and look at the threads that relate to image quality related problems with the Latex machines (L25500 / L26500 / Latex 260 / Latex 300-series) and be sure to note whether they have been resolved in short order (3 days or less).
And then then do the same review with the Mutoh, Mimaki, and Roland Forums (and other eco-solvent brand of machine). Look at the frequency that image quality issues are discussed for each (brands of solvent machines versus HP Latex).
One of the key benefits (in my opinion) of HP Latex is that a common point of failure on large-format printers has been turned into an inexpensive consumable (printheads), which can be easily, inexpensively (under $100 ea), and quickly (10 minutes) replaced by the end-user at low cost per head, whereas the solvent machines all use piezo printheads that cost at least $1,000 each to replace, generally the time needed to replace them is several hours. Unless the end user is willing to be responsible for the replacement, the printer manufacturers all recommend a trained field service engineer perform the replacement (I know that some here will say that they successfully replace printheads without a FSE).
Nobody is perfect, and issues will always happen with all brands of machines, but a careful review of the historical record will yield important clues about up-time and reliability over the life of all large-format machines.
My advice (worth what you paid for it) is for the OP (or anyone else who comes across this thread going forward with similar questions) to look at the HP forum, and look at the threads that relate to image quality related problems with the Latex machines (L25500 / L26500 / Latex 260 / Latex 300-series) and be sure to note whether they have been resolved in short order (3 days or less).
And then then do the same review with the Mutoh, Mimaki, and Roland Forums (and other eco-solvent brand of machine). Look at the frequency that image quality issues are discussed for each (brands of solvent machines versus HP Latex).
One of the key benefits (in my opinion) of HP Latex is that a common point of failure on large-format printers has been turned into an inexpensive consumable (printheads), which can be easily, inexpensively (under $100 ea), and quickly (10 minutes) replaced by the end-user at low cost per head, whereas the solvent machines all use piezo printheads that cost at least $1,000 each to replace, generally the time needed to replace them is several hours. Unless the end user is willing to be responsible for the replacement, the printer manufacturers all recommend a trained field service engineer perform the replacement (I know that some here will say that they successfully replace printheads without a FSE).
Nobody is perfect, and issues will always happen with all brands of machines, but a careful review of the historical record will yield important clues about up-time and reliability over the life of all large-format machines.
CanuckSigns
Active Member
in 9 years of printing with Roland printers, I've never had to replace a print head, the longest we have had a single machine is 4 years. I don't know if I'm in the minority here, but I don't see print head replacement every x number of years being an issue. Maybe someone who runs their printer all day every day may have a different opinion.
How many print heads are in the new latex machines? Our roland has 1 DX5 (I think) I have been told it's around $2500 to replace it, If I can get 4 years out of it, I may still be ahead of the game vs. the Latex.
FrankW
New Member
Yes, better Roland than Mutoh. But better Latex 300 than both.
I do support for that machines, and you can be shure that I would know if the machines "freak out over the smallest abnormality in conditions"
. It is just the opposite, the people get their machines and from a lot of them you never hear any problem.Roland suggests to have a maintenance of the printers every 6 months (replacing cappings etc.). If you don't do that you could have luck ... but sometimes in the future you will run into trouble. And, even if you had no need to replace a head until now, sometimes in the future you will need a new one. In Switzerland, for the price of roland inks per ml in comparison to the HP-inks, you could pay for the heads and the maintenance cartrige and roland ink is still more expensive.
One of the biggest advantages of Latex 300 in opposite to a eco-solvent is the impressive scratch and chemical resistance.
One time a Eco-Solvent-User have bought a Latex 330, and during delivery he told me "by the way, the scratch resistance of the prints you showed us during the demo, we can't believe that, we will do our own tests". An other visitor came back to the table with the samples every few minutes to try again scratching the prints.
An other time someone visits us for a demo who want to replace two Photo Printers (HP Z6100) with latex (because of cheaper consumables). A few days after the visit and tests in our show room they have decided to not only kick that two old HP's, but two rolands too. Until now they have got three Latex 360, and still have one roland in use just because it is very new (1 1/2 years).
One time a customer has bought a Latex 360 blind, just because of print samples. A few weeks after installation, I had him on the phone, and he was really amazed about that machine.
If showing samples to customers, lots of them are asking "what kind of laminate you have used on that prints"?
Latex allows you to laminate immediately after printing without fear of outgassing issues. Other than that, an inkjet is just a machine that shoots colored dots much like a laminator is simply 2 rollers pinching together
The OP needs to decide what he needs from the device, and of course should factor in the availability of qualified techs. Nothing worse than a lousy tech breaking your machine.
The OP needs to decide what he needs from the device, and of course should factor in the availability of qualified techs. Nothing worse than a lousy tech breaking your machine.
mrugen
New Member
Take care of your printer & it will take care of you
I "see" a lots of printers since I attend a lot of trade shows. I work with Mutoh, Roland, HP from a software standpoint. I hear from owners of these printers and most of them love what they have, but one common observation when I visit a printer owner in a shop is that they don't take very good care of the printer. I visited one shop who blamed the software for bad printing. When I arrived to assist, the printer side covers were missing, the printer was covered with dust and the bulk ink system was dripping on the printer and the floor. They had not done maintenance for over a year! I spent the day cleaning and servicing and then, guess what? The test print was perfect! I realize this is the exception, but I bring it up because I think that its not so much the TYPE of ink or printer model you purchase, but more whether you care for it.
Here's a great article about taking care of your printer: http://sdgmag.com/article/printing-finishing/preventive-printer-maintenance
Many years ago, I was an agent for the Graphics Intelligent Agency, a group of consultants who taught color management and hardware maintenance to the industry among other topics. We had a motto about printer care: Every Day, Every Week, Every Month, Every Year. We recommended that printer owners develop a schedule of maintenance following this motto.
Whether solvent, eco-solvent, UV or Latex, find the right media, find the right profiles, learn your software from design to color management and take care of your printer!
Take care of your printer, no matter your choice, and it will take care of you.
I "see" a lots of printers since I attend a lot of trade shows. I work with Mutoh, Roland, HP from a software standpoint. I hear from owners of these printers and most of them love what they have, but one common observation when I visit a printer owner in a shop is that they don't take very good care of the printer. I visited one shop who blamed the software for bad printing. When I arrived to assist, the printer side covers were missing, the printer was covered with dust and the bulk ink system was dripping on the printer and the floor. They had not done maintenance for over a year! I spent the day cleaning and servicing and then, guess what? The test print was perfect! I realize this is the exception, but I bring it up because I think that its not so much the TYPE of ink or printer model you purchase, but more whether you care for it.
Here's a great article about taking care of your printer: http://sdgmag.com/article/printing-finishing/preventive-printer-maintenance
Many years ago, I was an agent for the Graphics Intelligent Agency, a group of consultants who taught color management and hardware maintenance to the industry among other topics. We had a motto about printer care: Every Day, Every Week, Every Month, Every Year. We recommended that printer owners develop a schedule of maintenance following this motto.
Whether solvent, eco-solvent, UV or Latex, find the right media, find the right profiles, learn your software from design to color management and take care of your printer!
Take care of your printer, no matter your choice, and it will take care of you.
busypc
New Member
Got horrible tech support on my mutoh 6 years ago. Switched over to Roland...never looked back. Only had 1 issue in 4 years.. really a workhorse!
i have heard good thing about hp latex printer. i do like the banner dont stick together like solvent ink. But apart from that i heard lots of bads. i wont mention the bads. every printer has its flaws. u have to buy the printer according to your market. i personally like solvent. i saw a hp uv machine and loved it also. but i have one complain every year printer manufacturer make a new printer. they never seem to out last the old technology in durability of inks. if u gain speed u loose durability. if u loose smell and voc u loose life span of inks. It all depends on what your market has to offer. apart from vehicle wraps most customers don't want to pay for laminate. 60 percent of banners will be in the garbage after 6 months. also a hp printer wont replace a textile printer or a solvent printer or a uv printer.
ProColorGraphics
New Member
I really like my HP latex printers. I have had 4 different ones now. I just upgrade to the new models when they come out. The new 360 is WAY improved compared to the first L25500!!
I originally switched from a Roland several years ago. I can't imaging going back to all of the cleaning and maintenance. I never thought anything of it until I didn't have to do it. haha. There wasn't anything wrong it, I just preferred the ease of use and quality of the latex. I also think you pay a lot more for Roland name.
I will admit that I have been interested in the Epson S70, but after hearing all of the horror stories, I stayed away. Even though I now hear they are finally figuring them out, I still don't trust them yet. The new JV300 with the 8 color ink set seems nice too.
HP has awesome tech support too. For the couple of times I have had an issue, the next was out the next day with the new part to fix it. I have no complaints.
I originally switched from a Roland several years ago. I can't imaging going back to all of the cleaning and maintenance. I never thought anything of it until I didn't have to do it. haha. There wasn't anything wrong it, I just preferred the ease of use and quality of the latex. I also think you pay a lot more for Roland name.
I will admit that I have been interested in the Epson S70, but after hearing all of the horror stories, I stayed away. Even though I now hear they are finally figuring them out, I still don't trust them yet. The new JV300 with the 8 color ink set seems nice too.
HP has awesome tech support too. For the couple of times I have had an issue, the next was out the next day with the new part to fix it. I have no complaints.