Need Advise on following Aqueous Rolls

[CarriedAwayCrafts]

I'm looking to purchase material for an older water-based printer (HP Designjet 800). I've done a bit of research and have come up with half a dozen products that I think will work for my purposes (want to do some outdoor signs but would like them to last for, at least, 6 months). I has wondering if anyone might have some experience with any of the following and could suggest one over the other:

Manufacturer	Product Name	Manuf'r Part #
FastPlot	Self Adhesive Polypropylene Banner	FP-WPAPP-R36100
Canon	OCE OPTIONS Roll Polypropylene Film	OPPOLYPS01
LexJet	TOUGHcoat Water-Resistant Self Adhesive Polypropylene	PPSA36
Sihl	3988 Classic Vinyl PSA Matte	398836065
Jexar	Water-Fast Calendered Vinyl W/ Permanent Adhesive	JEXAR6PERM3660
Sihl	3175 Tornado Outdoor Self Adhesive Vinyl	317536040

 

[Billct2]

Does the printer use dye or UV inks?

 

[CarriedAwayCrafts]

Does the printer use dye or UV inks?

Dye-based (cyan, magenta, yellow), Pigment-based (black).

 

[knucklehead]

I've used Lexjet Toughcote, it's good. You can forget the dye inks outside though.

 

[CarriedAwayCrafts]

Thanks Knuck,

I was leaning toward the Lexjet Toughcote. Their description says:

"LexJet's TOUGHcoat™ ... will last up to eight months outdoors without lamination. The TOUGHcoat™ technology makes the film exceptionally resistant to water and abrasion. ... is compatible with dye and pigment aqueous inks on thermal and piezo inkjet printers."

But you're saying, no way- huh? What sort of lamination options might I use (keeping in mind that I don't currently own a laminator). Or- given your experience, is there just no way to use dye inks outdoors- not even for say six months?

 

[Billct2]

I wouldn't try to use dye inks outside. Pigment inks can last a year or two if laminated.
But do an experiment, print something, make a couple copies.
Get a sample of pressure sensitive laminate that can be applied by hand.
Laminate one. Then put them outside on a south facing wall, see what they look like in a couple months.

 

[MikeD]

Dye inks aren't really cost effective for outdoor applications because they require a lam with massive amounts of UV inhibitors, and even with that, they won't last long. Pigments have large particle sizes with more mass and density, so they are more durable than dyes- in many ways.

 

[knucklehead]

If you are running black pigment ink, (didn't know you could do that), with the dyes, just change the dyes, over to pigments. Coat with some FrogJuice, you can get a year, or so. Except the reds.

 

[CarriedAwayCrafts]

Good advice from all above (thanks for your input- very helpful).

I bought a roll of LexJet's TOUGHcoat but can't seem to find an economical pressure sensitive laminate that I can apply by hand (will keep looking- suggestions welcome). Or instead, I might try FrogJuice as 'Clearjet' liquid already came up in my search as a possible alternative (though Clearjet seems a bit pricey).

One Question:

just change the dyes, over to pigments

How do you do that? Is it like a 'refill old cartridges with pigment ink' sort of thing? Or is there a source where I can buy pigment replacement cartridges that are compatible, instead of my current OEM dye cartridges?

 

[BobCap]

Awhile back I used some "waterproof" substrate designed for outdoor use on my Epson aqueous printer. Printed a sample. Ran it under the faucet and tried to smear the image. No way. It looked great.

I made 32 double sided 24" x 36" signs for one of my customers. They looked great. Customer was very happy.

Two weeks later he called me up and said he was having some trouble with the signs.

The ink was coming off.

I went over to his office and sure enough I could rub the ink and it powdered off...

Ever hear of acid rain?

Before you do this and give it to a customer test it in the rain.

I then reprinted the signs on our Mutoh, ate the cost and still have a happy customer...

The sales rep that sold me the material would not do anything about it. Needless to say I no longer buy any material for any of our printers from him.

Good luck. Get the signs printed on the right material with the correct ink and save yourself a headache.

Bob Cap
AAI
Gilbert, MN

 

[Tony McD]

I went through this several years ago with an encad printer. The dye inks won't last sometimes a month outside.
Pigmented inks and the correct vinyl and laminate can last quite a while.
I tried several vinyls, and without laminate the coating and print would start flaking off.
Forget which number, but the 3m vinyl and lam lasted by far the longest. Problem was it's so expensive, it's hard to
sell and compete with other vinyl types from a solvent printer.
Had to encapsulate the vinyl leaving about 1/4" of laminate around the print
to seal the decal to the substrate. Done this way, I've had them last 5/6 years.

 

[CarriedAwayCrafts]

I think we may be zeroing in on a possible sollution,

Billct2 says:

Pigment inks can last a year or two if laminated.

knucklehead says:

just change the dyes, over to pigments

Tony McD says:

Pigmented inks and the correct vinyl and laminate can last quite a while.

MikeD says:

Pigments have large particle sizes with more mass and density, so they are more durable

I Googled my printer name/model along with various forms of 'replace' 'convert' etc. to 'pigment ink,' but the only thing I came up with was a company in China that sells refill inks (they say all pigment) for their CISS that is compatible with my printer.

Which begs the question: 'Can I simply use pigment inks in place of the dye inks (which are the CMY cartridges)'? Just refill the dye cart's with pigment?

I googled that, too, but could not find a definitive answer. Could it be that the CMY (dye) printheads are so different from the k (pigment) printhead? Or is it, perhaps, all in the way that the processor lays down the two different ink types on the media? Or is it neither of those things and refilling with all pigment inks would not pose any kind of a problem?

I know that the simple solution is 'buy a solvent printer,' but - at this juncture - that is not really an option for me (though on my wish-list).

I really appreciate all of the comments. I'm gaining a lot from this. Hopefully, other new readers will too. For reference- my printer is an HP Designjet 800 (42" version).

 

[Billct2]

I don't think you can get pigment inks to work with dye print heads . The machines I've had require a complete swap out of inks, print heads and ink tubes to do that.

 

[eahicks]

Yeah I've never heard of running both pigment and dye together. Two different heads and inks systems. Yikes....
However, when I ran an HP 5500, I used that Jexar quite a bit. Good cost effective vinyl, and definitely need to laminate any outdoor signs you make, IMO, with any aqueous setup.

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