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Need help choosing a printer

NotaGraphicDesigner

Was roped into all this
Hey all,

My job wants to start pulling our stickers in house and I was chosen to be the man to figure everything out. Someone bought us a Roland LEF2-300 for doing our polycarbonate second surface stickers which I think I have decently figured out over the last year of messing with it. The next printer we wanted to buy was a Gerber Edge FX to do our exterior vinyl stickers. The thing is with Gerber no longer making printers or plotters my boss does not want us going with them. My question to you all is, are there other printers out there with the same/similar capabilities of the edge printer? Or would sticking with the Roland work with our vinyl stickers? I think we would be making 20-30k total stickers per year about half polycarbonate half vinyl if my math is correct. I hope I have given enough info
 

MikePatterson

Head bathroom cleaner.
I would outsource if all I was printing was 10 to 15k decals a year on a machine. Printers love to be printing and hate sitting idle. But If I had to buy something I would buy a used Roland Ecosol printer. Any model would be fine but if you wanted to not spend a ton and if the heads were to go bad not be out a lot of money to fix it. I would look at a SPi or VPi models. The XC 540 is a great printer but with 6 dx4 heads it can be expensive if they all dry up.
 

NotaGraphicDesigner

Was roped into all this
Thanks for that! I have brought up that it might make the most sense for us not to bring them in house. So, you would not recommend a thermal transfer printer? The reason I ask is that is what our current supplier uses a Gerber, and we would like to not change our process sheets. I know what you mean on them not liking to sit idle we only use the Roland about once every 2 weeks and its constantly clogged especially the white nozzles.
 

MikePatterson

Head bathroom cleaner.
My shop runs 3 inkjets and a Gerber Edge 2. Thermal is good at what its good at. Clear decals with white or color over white. Reverse print on cling and stuff like that. I keep our Edge in service just to print a few things i cant print with inkjet.

so if a Gerber Edge is what will work for you then run with that.
 
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jfiscus

Rap Master
Gerber just isn't making any more machines. There are going to be supplies and parts available for years. If you're printing specialty decals and only for in-house jobs a Gerber Edge is going to be your best bet. It also doesn't care much about sitting idle for weeks at a time, where that will ruin a standard inkjet printer.

The part your boss probably isn't that excited about is that a used Gerber setup usually costs as much or more than a cheap new wide format printer. However, if you take decent care of it, a Gerber setup will last you 10-20 years, where a wide format printer is usually worn out in 4-5 years.
 

Haimduek

New Member
Pls into Latex R2R printers they are the highest print quality 1200 DPI completely green, they do not smell like solvent or UV, easy to operate and do not require waiting for Gas out. They can be laminated right away. You can load the printer from the front and the take up reel is on the front as well so basically you can push the printer against the wall and do not need much space. They do not require evacuation. we also have them with anti scratch additive in the ink or over coat channel as well as white. Call me privately and will send you to customers around you who can testify. duek@hp.com 508 207 7163
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Is someone at hp really trying to sell printers directly through here with bold claims like highest quality printer / no smell? :roflmao:

I'd expect that from a new distributor trying to sell a printer, not an hp rep.
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Pls into Latex R2R printers they are the highest print quality 1200 DPI completely green, they do not smell like solvent or UV, easy to operate and do not require waiting for Gas out. They can be laminated right away. You can load the printer from the front and the take up reel is on the front as well so basically you can push the printer against the wall and do not need much space. They do not require evacuation. we also have them with anti scratch additive in the ink or over coat channel as well as white. Call me privately and will send you to customers around you who can testify. duek@hp.com 508 207 7163

Love the HP marketing
1200 DPI? i doubt that. visually looks like 50 dpi.
Need an additive so it's not scratch resistance, but you're knocking UV printers? as far as i can tell, there's no additive to UV prints as they're are scratch resistant.
Completely green? What about all the print heads you need to change that i e-waste? and maintenance kits?
 

signheremd

New Member
Quality comes at a price in printers.

Gerber seems expensive considering what it is and the fact they manufacturer is no longer making new ones. But parts are available (Hyatts or GMS) and foils will be around for quite some time (with the possible exception of a few colors that do not sell well). We still run a Edge that we bought 20 years ago - so they are designed to last. As others have said, no problem letting the machine set idle for weeks at a time.

Not a fan of Latex printers. They do produce excellent colors, but HP is notorious for discontinuing parts after 10 years or less. There are some folks that love latex printers and I don't want to see this turn into a latex debate. That said, do some research (like reading some old threads here on latex printers) and learn about the negatives as well as the positives. We considered one but have since concluded that for us our next printer will be a Roland, Cannon or Epson - price, quality, color quality, reliability, local service and true speed will decide.

The Cannon M series (formerly Colorado) are a good example of high quality. UV inks cure immediately, the ink lasts and is scratch resistant, the machine is so fast you would not need another printer. But this one is not cheap.

Roland. We currently have a Roland Soljet XR-640. It has been a true workhorse with virtually no problems in 7 years. We run a clean cycle every morning and we use Roland EcoSolvII inks. The vendor who sold this to us recommended running the clean cycle once per weekday, leaving it plugged in and on all the time and this has been key to staying free of clogged heads. We also perform a manual cleaning and change of the wipers, etc., once every six months. We do not have a smell from the inks, but they do need to off gas about two hours before laminating. On high quality/unidirectional our Roland is not fast but has very good quality for tiny text. It's real value is in reliability.

Epson. The SureColor 80600 is great combination of rich colors, speed, and quality for the price. Have been looking at these for some time now and worth consideration.

Having access to local service can be a gamechanger if and when your printer is down. Better to buy your second choice from a local company that services them and has a reputation for great after sales service than to buy your first choice and sit idle for a week or two waiting for service - down time costs you money, when your printer is running well it is literally printing you money... When that big name national brand says they have lots of servicemen in the area, ask "who?" and follow up with that lead. When that big name sign supplier says they have the best price, ask if they have their own servicemen or if warranty is completed by the manufacturer. (At least one sign maker on here had to wrestle to get warranty covered repairs done to their equipment.) The Chinese have a saying, "You can pay once or pay twice." sometimes the lower price costs more in the long run.
 

Gene@mpls

New Member
Roland RF640- we are on our 4th machine using only aftermarket inks. We have two printing replace after 4 years of constant use and never have down time, 4 color, one head.
 

damonCA21

Active Member
Gerber are good, but really these days they only make sense for very specialist printing like metallic colours and making small decals etc... They are a lot more expensive to run and also who knows how long replacement heads will be around?

If you are printing standard CMYK designs I would definitely go for a Roland solvent printer. Something like the SP540V would be perfect. Printing is very cheap. They are very well built and last forever if maintained.

Even when the heads eventually wear out, then they are only around £500 each and just use two, so you can have a basically brand new machine for £1000. They are also easy to work on and maintain yourself, or if you want to get someone else in there are lots of techs familiar with them.

Also worth looking at the new truevis printers if your budget stretches to that.
 

Haimduek

New Member
Love the HP marketing
1200 DPI? i doubt that. visually looks like 50 dpi.
Need an additive so it's not scratch resistance, but you're knocking UV printers? as far as i can tell, there's no additive to UV prints as they're are scratch resistant.
Completely green? What about all the print heads you need to change that i e-waste? and maintenance kits?
Pauly,

Our HP latex technology has Gen3 inks and Gen4 ink (The latest). Gen3 inks has a built in into the inks anti scratch additive which automatically migrates to the surface at the time of ink curing and harden to protect against scratches.
In Gen 4 we created a separate channel called OC (Over Coat) which can be turned on or off which is protecting the inks from scratches.
 

jcskikus

Owner, Designer & Installer
My take on the printer equipment out there today...

Gerber: a 15" wide printer that prints thermally. The only ones really still uses these are people in the Emergency Vehicle business that can't get out of their own way. Most do not laminate their prints and the ability to produce large graphics is by talking the customer out of doing so. I used one decades ago and it's the equivalent of using a Cricut™ in the sign industry today.

HP: great for regular graphics as they print well and can be laminated right away, but the electricity cost for 230w and their inability to layer ink with depth leaves colors lacking, reds in particular. On reflective vinyl, it's a waste. It covers more than allows the reflective to show, especially on darker colors.
The ability to get parts without having to buy an entire kit or assembly is also limiting. The 560 Latex I've used kept breaking the pinch roller clamping arm. After 3 breaking in 2 months and on the phone with an HP tech, it got bumped to "Engineering" where this tier knew of the problem in which they sent me a metal arm to replace the plastic one that came with the machine and was replaced with 3 times. 21 days downtime for something that should have been released in a service bulletin.

Epson: The S80600 prints like it was Michelangelo...flawless. The maintenance is a bit different from other machines, but it runs beautifully. Not a fan of their take-up reel and how it feeds into the machine though, but I'll take what I can get for the prints it puts out. Although I'm fairly comfortable with ONYX, I wish it also used Flexi as a RIP. Currently use both on a few different machines and sometimes I rather just create a contour cut and send it immediately to Production Manager and not have to look it over in A.I. before printing.
The ability of printing in white or metallic is cool as well. The white was the best and solved a lot of my printing in reverse, laminating in white, the contour cutting after peeling white up where registration marks are. Saved me a ton of time.
Dual heads meant prints in a third less time. The color is always vibrant and accurate since it's also Pantone certified.

Mutoh: Until recently, these were the easiest machines to use. Using Flexi as a RIP, they still are but Mutoh's RIP is not that great, lacking in decent profiles, and with Mutoh still learning the color curve on using the newer Epson print heads, not all that great. Limiting. The update to firmware / proprietary RIP killed business for so many shops last year when it too Mutoh over 4 months to come up with an update.
I still use 3 machines at my house without a problem and still can get inks and print heads for the time being. I'll wait out the problems with the newer machines until the DX7 is put to rest.
As for as color goes, the eco-solv is easy to mimic 3M reflective colors on double-strike. I've done loads of cop cars, ambulances, and fire trucks using these without a glitch. Mind you, these are with single print head equipment. The VJ-1638X leaves a flat, powdered look like the newer Mutoh printers. The best way to get pure bright yellow outta this printer...? Use ONYX.

Roland: Had used the PC-600 way back in the late 90's until the SP-300V came out. I was the 2nd shop in NJ to get the eco-solv back in 2003 for $17k. Used Flexi, CorelDraw, and A.I. to set things up. Printed great, but I never cared, and still don't, for Roland's RIP. Techs and engineers for Roland are usually though that became burnt out at Mutoh or Epson. Rolands, in general, are slow. A SP-540V would take 55 minutes to print a 48"x96" banner in mid-resolution. In banner-mode, it'd do it in 30 minutes and have massive banding. Color is great, although it seems their banding problem is still there after 20 years.
I've had business friends who have gotten a TrueVis printer say this. Again, for the money and after all these years, it's still slower than a Mutoh. The RIP hasn't gotten much better either.
As for the machine, it's a workhorse and built more solid than the others. But if I am getting banding and slower print times when I need to push out product, is that worth it?
 

signheremd

New Member
My take on the printer equipment out there today...

Gerber: a 15" wide printer that prints thermally. The only ones really still uses these are people in the Emergency Vehicle business that can't get out of their own way. Most do not laminate their prints and the ability to produce large graphics is by talking the customer out of doing so. I used one decades ago and it's the equivalent of using a Cricut™ in the sign industry today.

HP: great for regular graphics as they print well and can be laminated right away, but the electricity cost for 230w and their inability to layer ink with depth leaves colors lacking, reds in particular. On reflective vinyl, it's a waste. It covers more than allows the reflective to show, especially on darker colors.
The ability to get parts without having to buy an entire kit or assembly is also limiting. The 560 Latex I've used kept breaking the pinch roller clamping arm. After 3 breaking in 2 months and on the phone with an HP tech, it got bumped to "Engineering" where this tier knew of the problem in which they sent me a metal arm to replace the plastic one that came with the machine and was replaced with 3 times. 21 days downtime for something that should have been released in a service bulletin.

Epson: The S80600 prints like it was Michelangelo...flawless. The maintenance is a bit different from other machines, but it runs beautifully. Not a fan of their take-up reel and how it feeds into the machine though, but I'll take what I can get for the prints it puts out. Although I'm fairly comfortable with ONYX, I wish it also used Flexi as a RIP. Currently use both on a few different machines and sometimes I rather just create a contour cut and send it immediately to Production Manager and not have to look it over in A.I. before printing.
The ability of printing in white or metallic is cool as well. The white was the best and solved a lot of my printing in reverse, laminating in white, the contour cutting after peeling white up where registration marks are. Saved me a ton of time.
Dual heads meant prints in a third less time. The color is always vibrant and accurate since it's also Pantone certified.

Mutoh: Until recently, these were the easiest machines to use. Using Flexi as a RIP, they still are but Mutoh's RIP is not that great, lacking in decent profiles, and with Mutoh still learning the color curve on using the newer Epson print heads, not all that great. Limiting. The update to firmware / proprietary RIP killed business for so many shops last year when it too Mutoh over 4 months to come up with an update.
I still use 3 machines at my house without a problem and still can get inks and print heads for the time being. I'll wait out the problems with the newer machines until the DX7 is put to rest.
As for as color goes, the eco-solv is easy to mimic 3M reflective colors on double-strike. I've done loads of cop cars, ambulances, and fire trucks using these without a glitch. Mind you, these are with single print head equipment. The VJ-1638X leaves a flat, powdered look like the newer Mutoh printers. The best way to get pure bright yellow outta this printer...? Use ONYX.

Roland: Had used the PC-600 way back in the late 90's until the SP-300V came out. I was the 2nd shop in NJ to get the eco-solv back in 2003 for $17k. Used Flexi, CorelDraw, and A.I. to set things up. Printed great, but I never cared, and still don't, for Roland's RIP. Techs and engineers for Roland are usually though that became burnt out at Mutoh or Epson. Rolands, in general, are slow. A SP-540V would take 55 minutes to print a 48"x96" banner in mid-resolution. In banner-mode, it'd do it in 30 minutes and have massive banding. Color is great, although it seems their banding problem is still there after 20 years.
I've had business friends who have gotten a TrueVis printer say this. Again, for the money and after all these years, it's still slower than a Mutoh. The RIP hasn't gotten much better either.
As for the machine, it's a workhorse and built more solid than the others. But if I am getting banding and slower print times when I need to push out product, is that worth it?
Interesting. We don't have banding issues with our Roland (XR640).
 

White Haus

Not a Newbie
My take on the printer equipment out there today...

Gerber: a 15" wide printer that prints thermally. The only ones really still uses these are people in the Emergency Vehicle business that can't get out of their own way. Most do not laminate their prints and the ability to produce large graphics is by talking the customer out of doing so. I used one decades ago and it's the equivalent of using a Cricut™ in the sign industry today.

I realize this is only "your take"................but if that's your view on Gerber Edge setups you're missing out! We can print thousands of dollars worth of 1-2 color decal/label orders on a single Edge 2 machine in a day. Pair that with a sprocket fed Gerber plotter and they're still money making machines.

And we don't do any emergency vehicles and sure as hell don't need to talk our customers out of large decals - we have other printers for that.

Anyways..........good summary but you're missing the mark on the Edge. Great set up to have as long as you have other options. We had one of the first Edges in Western Canada when they came out and we've been making money with them ever since.

Carry on.
 

jcskikus

Owner, Designer & Installer
I realize this is only "your take"................but if that's your view on Gerber Edge setups you're missing out! We can print thousands of dollars worth of 1-2 color decal/label orders on a single Edge 2 machine in a day. Pair that with a sprocket fed Gerber plotter and they're still money making machines.

And we don't do any emergency vehicles and sure as hell don't need to talk our customers out of large decals - we have other printers for that.

Anyways..........good summary but you're missing the mark on the Edge. Great set up to have as long as you have other options. We had one of the first Edges in Western Canada when they came out and we've been making money with them ever since.

Carry on.

Most of the work I do isn't small graphics, but usually commercial signage and vehicle graphics. The few companies I come in contact with mainly use their Gerbers for emergency vehicle graphics. Although the look is nice, it just isn't practical with the amount of wide format printers that are out there.
I'll agree, printing mass 1-2 color decals under 12"x18" using this printer would be great. Probably what Mutoh and Roland were attempting with their under 30" wide units. As a one-man shop with 3 printers, I just don't have the time for all that weeding and trimming.
 

damonCA21

Active Member
A lot depends on what sort of work you are going to do. I still think the Edge is better for specialist colours as the print costs are very high compared to eco solvent.
I mainly do logo printing from vectors and rarely photo type stuff. On the Roland this is great as if you print in high quality and overlay twice, you get results that are very very similar to screen printing. No pixelation or banding and very solid vibrant colours. Yes, it does cost more in time and ink, but the results are worth it
 
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