Permit or pass?

[Gino]

I think what some of you might be missing is the basic fact about permits. A permits guarantees you are professional, have proper licensing, have performed all the work according to codes, Found out about ALL underground utilities and overhead ones, too. It also guarantees should something go wrong... the person performing the work has proper insurance to cover any or all problems which may occur. It also guarantees you have all your drawing stamped by a licensed engineer. Everything is U/L approved. Whether one is performing all new signs or just replacing an old face...... How is it your opinion what does and does not need permits ?? If you are performing 2nd or 3rd party work, you by law must prove you are allowed to perform the work needed or intended to be furnished.

There's no side of a fence, unless you take the laws and codes into your own hands, which last time I looked, we don't have that authority or ability. What is different about a guy up in a lift 65' in the air, dropping a drill and it lands on someone's head passing by below vs being on a ladder and the drill falls 14' on someone's head ?? Other than one will most likely be dead and the other one seriously hurt...... without a permit, who does the rotten lawyer come after ?? ALL.... is that answer and without a permit, you're up that famous creek without your paddle and heading up the list.

Folks, this is not a debate, arguement or fence. It's mostly about protection from idiots now doing the work. The computer world has let many many fools into this industry and they are pretending to be professionals. As long as they are here, all this thread did was to fuel them into more idiotic trends. Follow the laws and the customers will have no choice but to follow along, too. Give in, like the other hacks, and you're no better than those backyard hacks. If that's the business model you wanna follow, good for you. It just shouldn't be cited here as a possible way. Ya wanna help your customers and this industry, then play by the book and get rid of some of these silly notions ya have.

 

[brentjosker]

Short story,
I did sub work for Fast signs in Buffalo because they were licensed and insured but their installers couldn't figure how to install a sign properly, or like you said they were back yard hacks. Just because you are Insured and Licensed thru the town doesn't mean crap. Want to impress me? just like a lawyer or Doctor, before the towns issue a license, make sure the company and personal under that company are proficient enough to perform their duties.
So yeah ABC company hired CBA sign company to install their sign, they got the sign company information from town because they were licensed thru the town, The sign was permitted, installed and fell down and killed a person, here come the lawyers. Either way your getting sued!

 

[Gino]

Yes, but what you left out was...... they had their permits. NOW, the city cannot be sued. Do you realize how many cities are p!ss poor these days ?? Do you know how many counties and cities are sharing police with state police ?? Most cities are poor and cannot afford silly lawsuits, so while you might think a $500 permit is high, that won't do squat towards their budgets, but one lawsuit like the one you mentioned could cancel out 4 more policemen, a few vehicles and perhaps a well needed person on the bench. Times that a few more times a year and the hacks will eventually win out.

I'm not trying to impress you. I have no idea what made you think that. Most sign companies when it comes to the fabrication of signs in question have regulations supposed to be enforced in a sign shop. As an installer, you are supposed to be accredited and certified on certain things and in certain areas. Send the appropriate man/woman to do that job.

Again, there are plenty of quacks and class D lawyers running around, but some nitwit gave them a paper to hang on their wall, so I guess they're legit.

 

[unclebun]

I'm with Gino on this one. There is no "getting around" permits. Though there are some things about sign ordinances that are unduly restricting (because back about 20 years ago some anti-sign people went around giving cities and towns boilerplate ordinances that severely limit height, size, and type of sign to fit their vision of a signless landscape), the primary purpose of sign ordinances is safety of construction and installation. That includes both structural integrity and electrical safety. Some ordinances also ensure use of proper sign types for the application (such as not allowing a banner to be a business's primary sign). You should be embracing the permit process and view it as a normal part of making a sign, just as you would view permitting if you were a construction contractor or electrical contractor.

What I have seen in my time in the profession is that as more and more people have gotten into the sign business because they owned a computer and a printer and that made them a sign shop, or guys who started out doing wraps and have branched into doing signs, or print shops buying a vinyl printer because nobody buys stationery any more, and then deciding they will make signs and be a sign shop, because they have started doing things that are unsafe, wrong, or bad out in the field, the cities have been making the sign ordinances stricter and stricter, and sign permitting has gone from something where the city official trusted the sign professional to do things correctly, and accepted the engineering calculations from the sign shop, to moving the permitting to the building construction permitting department, requiring stamped engineer drawings for everything, requiring inspection of holes before erecting the sign, inspection of concrete pours, and all the stuff they do for building construction.

In the old days, people entered the sign business as apprentices and worked their way up, learning the right way to do things from people who knew the right way. Then when they got to the point of running things, they did things the right way. Now, people start sign shops with zero experience or knowledge and think they can do everything by watching youtube videos or asking questions on the internet. Or they just think they know or can figure it out themselves. And that is what has led to the real crackdown on sign permitting. Before, the city didn't have to worry about sign failures or injuries/damage from inadequate or unsafe sign construction. The sign profession policed itself. Now, the inexperienced and untrained sign makers are out making us have to have outside policing. It's attitudes like what I am reading in this thread that will continue to make cities crack down.

 

[gnubler]

Our town does not police signage - but you never know if someone doesn't like your customer - or you - and rats you out to the city. It pays to have a good relationship with the city then they leave you alone or at least won't fine you.

This is how it is in my area too, so you know how small town politics work. Last thing I want is to be on the shit list of the city, it only makes life harder. Yes, the corruption/greed is rampant as mentioned here, for a freakin' sign it's better to just do it right.

FYI, two of the cities I deal with require a permit for banners. I'm not even messing with installs for those, I leave it on the customer.

 

[signage]

Codes aren't laws.....wait until you do something against code and they take you to court, or worse yet someone get injured by something you did and didn't get a permit see what that will cost you!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I think some things that they require permits for are a bit excessive. I don't think it's really a money thing, cities have pretty substantial costs involved in reviewing permit applications, they have engineers, clerical people, a building to pay for, outside inspectors, vehicles, insurance etc just like everyone else. Those costs need to be covered and it shouldn't be covered by general taxes as they are not the ones utilizing the services. My complaint is the time they take and some of the hoops you have to jump through. Even a roof re-sheet with like for like requires an engineer which to me is stupid.

 

[gnubler]

We usually add $400 to the top of the permit for all the leg work, color samples, and renderings that are required. My cheapest permit is $475 in our area.

I started out charging a $100 admin fee on top of the permit fee. With all the work that goes into it I feel like I'm getting ripped off. What is everyone else charging? Hourly rate depending on what's involved?

 

[signheremd]

The towns are being ran like a business, not as a good steward to the business community.

Not weighing in on the rest, but FWIW towns are incorporated... thus technically a business with limited liability (the sole purpose of incorporation is to limit liability, whether you are a business or a town). Few in any form of government or government agency see themselves as serving the community as much as running it.

These days, folks are often discouraged from opening new businesses; and I have yet to see a town that helps you through that process or tells you exactly which rules you need to follow before holding you accountable for violating one. But back to your comment, you see this business minded management in many aspects of government. For instance, the police figure a certain amount of income via speeding tickets into their budget. Officers are given a quota to meet - partly as a measure of job performance and to keep the department on track for budget.

 

[unclebun]

Codes aren't laws.....wait until you do something against code and they take you to court, or worse yet someone get injured by something you did and didn't get a permit see what that will cost you!

Except there are no sign codes. Electrical and building, yes, but not sign. Where you have laws comes in with city ordinances. The ordinance will be what requires the sign permit. And the ordinance will specify allowable sizes, types of sign, types of construction, etc. And what electrical code is being used. And whether there have to be stamped engineer drawings.

It makes me wonder if the people who are shirking the permitting processes even realize that there is an ordinance they can read, show to the customer, and design signs that are compliant.

 

[Johnny Best]

What are you going to do when you retire Signage? Pull permits for sign companies.

 

[signage]

move off grid! I wont have to do anything have made enough to have a comfortable retirement!


Not like you and Gino need to work until you end up in a grave.

 

[brentjosker]

if you put up a sign without a permit, without express permission and knowledge of the town and it falls and kills someone the town would not have liability, now if you put the same sign up with a permit and it fell and killed someone then yes town is culpable.
im sorry but i laughed out loud here in my office when i read, "As an installer, you are supposed to be accredited and certified on certain things and in certain areas. Send the appropriate man/woman to do that job."
Sir, you sound like an older sign guy, things are very different, accredited? from what nationally recognized body? perhaps crane operators license, finally. but what else, every now and again you have a Construction management company ask you for your OSHA 30 of you aerial lift certificate, but generally , NO.
Ill tell you what when you guys retire, petition congress, and create a national sign council, a body to govern the individual and their credentials and licenses. I love it, more bulls__t bureaucracy, more paperwork, more insight, more fees and jobs for useless people.

 

[Gino]

brent........ you just keep doing things your way and totally disregard rules, policies, licensing, permits and whatever else floats your boat. If you are not all that old, but wanna get old, I'd suggest you try doing things correctly. I guess in your shop, you don't build signs according to UL standards or use proper equipment when going up in the air. Cripes, even when you rent a piece of equipment, they make sure you are properly certified to use their equipment. I guess in your office, you mustn't have much to do with regulations or up in buffalo, ya just don't give a sh!t. Yep, your line about who would be or not responsible for someone having a sign fall on them is really accurate. You actually think if your sign was put up on some brackets by you and it fell down a month later and killed someone...... if no permit was obtained, no one would be responsible ?? However, if you pull a permit for the same sign and it falls through your shoddy workmanship or not, the city would now be responsible and not you ?? Just because you took ut a permit ?? Did you read what you wrote before you hit 'send' ?? You sound worse as you go on. I might be old, but you sound like some kid in his mom's basement, pulling at strings. How's the strawberry quick today ??

 

[Stacey K]

Thankfully I don't do electrical signs or anything needing a lift. My permits are basic, a 4x8 signboard being replaced on existing poles or something of that nature. Sounds like some of these permit processes could be very time consuming.

I hope everyone commenting on this particular thread has business insurance. You could lose everything over one sign falling and hurting someone...permit or not.

 

[brentjosker]

wow Gino, you are pretty perceptive. Yup in the basement. And may I say with all due respect, old guy. Your generation and those who are your age have done a bang up job out there, i seen some of you guys at it.
your right, you do you and ill do me. Thanks for all the insight, Oh i meant to say earlier, i have been around tons of city officials and if you are not, you should become one!!!!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I started out charging a $100 admin fee on top of the permit fee. With all the work that goes into it I feel like I'm getting ripped off. What is everyone else charging? Hourly rate depending on what's involved?

$175 for simple stuff. basically 15 mins to fill out online and send in the proofs I already send to the customer. More for complicated jobs.

 

[Gino]

Yo brent...... have a good weekend and don't let any signs fall on yur head. It might be one of your own.

 

[gnubler]

$175 for simple stuff. basically 15 mins to fill out online and send in the proofs I already send to the customer. More for complicated jobs.

Doesn't seem to be so streamlined here. No online forms, have to go pick up or be mailed triplicate forms filled out by hand. Need property owner consent in writing, property and building frontage linear feet, aerial shots of property and roadway, and mockups of each sign with building specs. I'm thinking of bumping up my fee to $200 minimum.

 

[Gino]

The problem with permits is it's so time consuming as mentioned numerous times. If you try to do it, they might ask you some questions about the site and if you can't contact the customer, you need to waste another trip. Around here, every municipality has different rules for the same set of circumstances. I like when its in a mall or shopping center, as most of those places have blanket permits. SIze restrictions and just about everything else goes out the window. You just need to show your elevation drawings and be sure you have stamped engineer drawings. Our insurance and compliance forms and whatnot are all on file and we update them every year as required.

Here's one for y'all while kinda on this subject. Tax exemption forms in your files for all of your customers, did you know you are supposed to update them each and every year you do business with that customer. If ABC Company did business with you in 2019 and came to you in 2021, you are supposed to get those papers resubmitted, to make sure that customer has updated their status. If they didn't and you don't question it and get caught, you're in trouble for not keeping your books up to snuff. If ya never do business with them again, it won't matter, but otherwise, you need to update and stay current. This is all basic business 101. Many of you don't have a clue. Cripes most of you don't even have proper insurances or licensing to really do business.

How many running outta their home have business insurance..... or use your home owners insurance if something gets damaged to equipment or whatever ??