Print on clear for lighted application

[Enola]

Quick question about print on clear for a lighted sign application.

So my printer tells me he is printing at -30 (minus 30?), and he seems to indicate that is some kinda big deal, and that should explain why certain things appear as they do. Well, it didn't mean squat to me.

I guess that would have been a good question for him, but he was very frustrating to talk to. Half way thru the conversation, I was simply ready to hang up and move on.

Curiosity is getting the best of me. Can anyone give me a simple explanation?

 

[HStewart]

Hi! Can you explain how the prints are looking? Is the quality bad, are there lines, is it too light or dark? We do large format printing for backlit application & have never used the term "-30" and my only guesses are 1. he's reducing the print by 30% in scale, or 2. he's physically slowing down the speed of the print head (we can adjust ours by choosing uni- or bidirectional)

Bigger issue is that your printer is choosing to sound really smart vs. working with you to get the job done. It's his job to reproduce your image, not give excuses as to why it's not working.

 

[unclebun]

If I had to guess, the printer is saying he is darkening the print by 30%. Unless he is doing cryogenic printing.

 

[Superior_Adam]

not sure what -30% is. We print backlit signs all the time. We print color white color with the front color being 100% color then white then the back color at 50% to avoid washout when the lights are on.

 

[OPENSignsInc.]

No idea what -30 is either. I run my mimaki jv-150 & cjv-150 out of signlab 10. I got a profile for VPM that I created to double hit at photo (2 x 16pass - basically same speed as unidirectional but twice the ink) on clear for backlit. Then I got 2 box fans to put in front of the printers and let it sit a good 24-48 hours before lamination.

 

[MikePro]

explain the context of "appear as they do". either it looks like your image, or it doesn't...des the image illuminate as it should, or is it washed-out?

 

[Enola]

The colors appear almost normal when lit, but overly dark when not illuminated.
From what I've read (and experienced), other lighted sign prints that I've had done elsewhere typically look super dead on color during the day, then a little washed out when lit.

The only thing I can figure, he is trying to compensate the opposite direction. Definitely the worst of 2 evils.
Totally unacceptable during the day.

I'm cutting my losses and going back to my old printer to redo this.

Bigger issue is that your printer is choosing to sound really smart vs. working with you to get the job done. It's his job to reproduce your image, not give excuses as to why it's not working.

Thats what I was thinking also. Dazzle me with Brilliance, or Baffle me with Bullshit.
: )

 

[unclebun]

Based on your description of the appearance, the printer is not using a layer of white, and is instead doing an increased ink density to compensate for the washed out illuminated appearance. As I guessed, the +30 he threw at you is a reference to how much increase in ink he's done. It's the wrong way to do a printed face. The only correct way is ink/white/ink, no matter whether that is achieved in one print or two. Doublestrike makes for an overly dark daytime appearance, as does increased ink density.

 

[ColorCrest]

Can anyone give me a simple explanation?

Did you originally request the graphic to used as a day/night application?

 

[Bly]

not sure what -30% is. We print backlit signs all the time. We print color white color with the front color being 100% color then white then the back color at 50% to avoid washout when the lights are on.

So do we but 100% on the underlayer too.
Colour looks great with the lights on or off.

 

[MikePro]

sounds like he's just double striking the ink, to make up for it being washed-out when illuminated. ...which is unacceptable.

for a proper illuminated graphic, you need two layers of ink with a translucent white "buffer" between them.
this can be done by a printer with white capabilities, that will print a flood layer of white on top of the base layer of color, to make a color>white>color print in one-shot
OR
do what most of us do.....two prints, one substrate:
-printed trans. white vinyl, applied onto printed clear vinyl applied to first-surface of substrate
or
-two prints on clear, one of them being a mirror'd image, and applied to both sides of a trans. white substrate.

 

[Enola]

Did you originally request the graphic to used as a day/night application?

My first thought was, What type of illuminated sign would only be viewed at night?
Some seasonal signs in Alaska, and an EXIT sign in a dark theater ?

Sorry, your question struck me as funny. Forgive me. )))))

 

[unclebun]

There are some lighted signs which are only ever viewed with the illumination from within. Indoor signs like you see at airports come to mind.

 

[Enola]

you guys have been a great help. Thank you very much

 

[ColorCrest]

My first thought was, What type of illuminated sign would only be viewed at night?
Some seasonal signs in Alaska, and an EXIT sign in a dark theater ?

Sorry, your question struck me as funny. Forgive me. )))))

So I will ask again, did you originally request the graphic to be used as a day/night application or do you not understand the term?

 

[Enola]

no I did not specify a day/night application.

As for the understanding part, I have to say YES and NO.
My past experience has been digital print on clear, then applied to 1st surface of white translucent. This looks fantastic during the day, and as you know, washed out at night. I have had some that were much better looking at night than others.

The second process I'm familiar with is, masked and painted graphics on second surface followed by a flood coat of white. Always looks great.

ColorCrest,
I will assume you are also thinking about that lighted sign in the airport scenario? Here comes the "NO" part of my answer. So I will ask a question. Will a sign with a single print on clear (applied to white translucent substrate), that looks fantastic during the day, look as washed out in a lighter venue such as the airport, as it does outside in the pitch dark?

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Sorry for the rambling (just thinking out loud). Would anyone that is in the business of wholesaling Illuminated sign faces EVER assume that the sign will only be used in a lighted application without asking? I don't know the percentage here, but I could only guess that a good 75% of Illuminated signs will be used in a day/night application. I could be far off here, but I would say that number is even higher.

While I did not specify whether is was day night application, its a Hospital Parking Garage entrance sign. I can only assume he knew the answer without asking.


Thanks for giving me a second chance to answer. I did not think your question thru.

 

[ColorCrest]

As for the understanding part, I have to say YES and NO.

Day / night specifies one needs to perceive the graphic both during the day and at night equally well.

The attached image happens to be Kodak Day/Night Duratrans which used a single translucent photographic film media. This installation receives full sun from the West every cloudless day and appears equally well as it does at night while its backlit.

 

[Andy D]

not sure what -30% is. We print backlit signs all the time. We print color white color with the front color being 100% color then white then the back color at 50% to avoid washout when the lights are on.

Thanks you! This is the only proper way to print a backlit image. The only caveat is; depending on the print, the 1st color for me is from 30ish% to 100%