Pulling electrical sign permits - Houston, TX

[CreateSignCo]

I'm not a licensed electrical sign contractor, just a plain ole licensed sign contractor, but I have a customer who needs an electrical sign installed (install is simple, electrical is already run to the surface, just need to twist the wires together). Does anyone know if Houston will allow a basic sign contractor to install an electrical sign if they pay a master electrician to make the connections, on a sign-by-sign basis? Or do I absolutely need to be a licensed electrical sign contractor with a master electrician linked to my company to pull the permits? I know Masters can only be linked to one company at a time, so they don't come cheap. Just looking for some kind of solution that will allow me to keep this sale.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[visual800]

do it on the weekend.

Over here they wont allow us to install bulbs anymore without electrical permits BUT that is a new rule. It was ok a few years ok but now its not. Permits are nothing more than "money generators" for the city. When you get a permit here they dont even come out to investigate, you just take them a drawing and pay your money.

 

[ams]

Really? Texas won't allow a sign contractor to do the final connection on electrical signs? That is crazy. Here in Virginia we don't require any electrician if it's existing and install light bulbs. Only for running new lines throughout the building.
Heck Virginia also allows any sign contractor to install full size billboards from the ground up without any additional contractors.

If you are dealing with neon, I can see that. However fluorescent and LED don't require one here as 110v and below is covered by the sign contractor license.

What you can do is call your local state licensing department and ask them. However most likely they will say it varies per city and county.

 

[visual800]

Really? Texas won't allow a sign contractor to do the final connection on electrical signs? That is crazy. Here in Virginia we don't require any electrician if it's existing and install light bulbs. Only for running new lines throughout the building.
Heck Virginia also allows any sign contractor to install full size billboards from the ground up without any additional contractors.

If you are dealing with neon, I can see that. However fluorescent and LED don't require one here as 110v and below is covered by the sign contractor license.

What you can do is call your local state licensing department and ask them. However most likely they will say it varies per city and county.

I posted this before, we pulled a permit on channel letters LED lit. the inspector showed up (for another aspect not us) and MADE US place the LED leads in freaking FLEX! Or it wouldnt pass inspection! OMG we were so pissed you had never seen so much flex connections in your life.

This same inspector MADE the contractor lay 3/4" plywood in the crawl space behind the install wall for us with a freaking light up there. He is known in this city as the biggest *****.

 

[Gino]

Ya know, you guys wanna do everything by skirting around the laws for some reason.

Did it ever.... and I mean as in EVER, occur to you, there are many many times more people doing the very thing you are telling people to do, who really don't know how to do it and buildings burn down, things fall over and a myriad of other catastrophes and that's why these laws are on the books ?? Not everyone comes here to s101 to get their electrician license nor do they have any horse sense, but they use the same mindset you are...... and it backfires on them.

It just never ceases to amaze me.

To the OP, do it the right way and obey your laws or don't do it at all and let someone who is allowed to do it..... do it.​

 

[ams]

I posted this before, we pulled a permit on channel letters LED lit. the inspector showed up (for another aspect not us) and MADE US place the LED leads in freaking FLEX! Or it wouldnt pass inspection! OMG we were so pissed you had never seen so much flex connections in your life.

This same inspector MADE the contractor lay 3/4" plywood in the crawl space behind the install wall for us with a freaking light up there. He is known in this city as the biggest *****.

I'd have smacked him on the spot. I doubt any state code requires 12v to be in flex.

 

[3Dee]

CL2 LED wiring ul inwall rated

Tell that inspector to take a deep bite! .... but have printed copies of the UL regs with you

Inspectors, permits, and government red tape is a very sore subject for me. Same goes for OSHA (another topic)

I did a quick duckduckgo search ( I don't use gooogle anymore - they want to give away control of the internet and have been buddy buddy to obomba and been acting creepy lately ... another sore subject )

I guess I'm getting cranky as I age in this business / apologies

links that may help
https://www.diodeled.com/in-wall-rated-two-conductor-wire.html
http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=2592

LED power supplies are current limited and will shut off if shorted (UL) and won't create a fire by wiring faults
Neon 15,000 volts = a different subject

 

[visual800]

Ya know, you guys wanna do everything by skirting around the laws for some reason.

Did it ever.... and I mean as in EVER, occur to you, there are many many times more people doing the very thing you are telling people to do, who really don't know how to do it and buildings burn down, things fall over and a myriad of other catastrophes and that's why these laws are on the books ?? Not everyone comes here to s101 to get their electrician license nor do they have any horse sense, but they use the same mindset you are...... and it backfires on them.

It just never ceases to amaze me.

To the OP, do it the right way and obey your laws or don't do it at all and let someone who is allowed to do it..... do it.​

Ok, so OP wants to twist two wires. What exactly is the inspector going to do for him? IS he going to show up and test all lines? Is he going to twist the wires himself and make sure they are fine and then untwist so OP can retwist? Really WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO THAT WOULD FACILITATE A GOOD TWIST and ensure there is no small explosions as a result of this?

Man, you act like electrical is close to Nuclear. Its not like the sign dude is running 50 lamps on the facade of a building. this is nothing more than bureaucratic, red tape BS. If it was ok 4 years ago why is not now?

 

[visual800]

I'd have smacked him on the spot. I doubt any state code requires 12v to be in flex.

you have no idea! Dudes about 5'5" loud and bossy. He will yell in your face. Signs guys and every electrician in this town knows him and despises him. This is the difference between on the job learning and book learning. On this same job he wanted written verfication of the UL listing for the company that built the signs. Even though decals were on it.

I turned him onto my sales rep that built the letters and I think he let him have it!

 

[Gino]

Ok, so OP wants to twist two wires. What exactly is the inspector going to do for him? IS he going to show up and test all lines? Is he going to twist the wires himself and make sure they are fine and then untwist so OP can retwist? Really WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO THAT WOULD FACILITATE A GOOD TWIST and ensure there is no small explosions as a result of this?

Man, you act like electrical is close to Nuclear. Its not like the sign dude is running 50 lamps on the facade of a building. this is nothing more than bureaucratic, red tape BS. If it was ok 4 years ago why is not now?

Again, what you fail to omprehend along with the others is....... the OP wants to instal a whole new cabinet, from how he described it. He's not replacing faces or just twisting wires together. Do we know if the sign he is supplying is even UL stamped ?? You need to pull a permit first of all, to show and explain you are a competent person, capable of doing this stuff and according to what town or city you are in, some are very strict and some are backwards and let you get away with murder. He has to show liability insurance, in case something goes wrong. What if the sign cabinet falls while he's putting it up............. on a car or God forbid a person. Does he know how to rope off the area or call the proper authorities to get approval ??Evidently not, or he wouldn't be here asking these questions. I totally understand trying to save a buck or cut a corner, but what happens when it goes wrong and all you're doing is holding your d!ck in your hand, instead of the final check when the smoke clears ??

It's hardly space science, but rules are rules for a reason........ your little guy in your area is no wonder he is the way he is, based on your answers all the time. He must have his hands full with the sign guys in your area, if y'all think alike.

 

[visual800]

Youre a doomsday prepper arent you? The sky is falling isnt it?

Lets give OP credit for thinking he will rope off area that install will be in.

Getting a permit to install a sign does NOT prove you are competent to do the work.

and Call what proper authorities to get approval? The EPA, FBI, CIA, who are you talking about?


My God Man, do you get any work done in your area, I cannot fathom the h@ll you go thru to do a damn install. I can actually envision you carrying your hole diggers while getting a permit so they can be inspected and stamped and then getting approval from the EPA to dig in a certain area.

You carry your posts a little too far in explaining things.

I can also assure of this. In the event that The building explodes after your install and you DID get a permit, do you think the city will be liable for that?....Hell No they wont. So dont think getting a permit is like extra insurance coverage

 

[Gino]

5:43am is too early for you to be writing anything. Sounds like, you need some coffee and other stimulants to get your thoughts together. Now, you're just rambling. Talk later, it'll do you good, til your brain has a chance to wake up.:Sleeping:

 

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

A couple of things.

Never be afraid to challenge the Inspector, in fact when in doubt, ask them to point to the infraction of non-compliance to the page in the NEC book. Also, take it up with the head inspector. Most times the inspector might be basing old NEC code i.e. Class II needing a ground or bond to each letter, that is out dated as of 2011. Same for why you would need Class II in a flex? That's a conversation that needs to happen at the top.

Neon, Fluor, and LED all start at 120v and work their way up to 277 (except neon trannies these days)

LED's have cause fires in the past.

Neon traditionally will not start a fire when installed right. Fires only occur when installed incorrectly, mainly do to poor to little secondary insulation in metal conduit.

Neon may have a high voltage rating of 15,000 volts which is actually 7,500 per hub, but it's low current. Fluorescent fixtures are actually more dangerous and have caused more deaths than anything else on the field. I've never heard of a death occur on the field from Neon from electrocution, that would be a tough one. I did one time out of my own stupidity trust a toggle switch to be off and almost fell from a 25' ladder after being zapped, NOW that would be a stupid way to die. Unfortunately for you all I'm still here.

Lastly UL does not dictate installation, that's the NEC. Sometimes jurisdictions tack on extra requirements that stray from the NEC as it is their right too.....just like UL strays away from OSHA standards for a listing lab, whereas some labs stick closer to it.