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Screw you 3M.

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L

LarryB

New Member
Not only dictate pricing they will pay you for install but provide the graphics with a liquid laminate. I do not like installing 3m without a material laminate.
 
signage

signage

New Member
Coloradosigns said:
3M dictates the pricing you will have to charge and the installer is also responsible for any warranty issues. Maybe if I was an isntaller only it would benefit me? At the moment I'm losing key customers due to their stupid program that gives them an ultimatum.
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This is only stupid in the shops that are loosing jobs to them. If it wasn't beneficial to your customer's they would continue to use you! It must be better for them to get the wrap through the leasing company and writing it off along with the cost of the vehicle. Like I said earlier they said years ago for wrap shops to get to the car leasing companies and talk to them and it appears most didn't and are now crying the blues because 3M saw the benefits of doing this and put the idea into a viable system for the businesses that lease and get their vehicles wrapped.

Who knows after you guys (if you do) get Oracle or any of the other manufactures products well known maybe they will do something similar and you will be crying the blues all over again. Why you do not put more effort into getting either the dealerships or leasing companies to use your local companies is beyond me. Letting 3M know in an open forum what your plans are just doesn't make sense to me being they can counter what you are doing 10 fold over. So good luck with your plans. #m and all the large companies have been doing things like this while most of you were just thought in your parents plans!
 
HulkSmash

HulkSmash

New Member
signage said:
This is only stupid in the shops that are loosing jobs to them. If it wasn't beneficial to your customer's they would continue to use you! It must be better for them to get the wrap through the leasing company and writing it off along with the cost of the vehicle. Like I said earlier they said years ago for wrap shops to get to the car leasing companies and talk to them and it appears most didn't and are now crying the blues because 3M saw the benefits of doing this and put the idea into a viable system for the businesses that lease and get their vehicles wrapped.

Who knows after you guys (if you do) get Oracle or any of the other manufactures products well known maybe they will do something similar and you will be crying the blues all over again. Why you do not put more effort into getting either the dealerships or leasing companies to use your local companies is beyond me. Letting 3M know in an open forum what your plans are just doesn't make sense to me being they can counter what you are doing 10 fold over. So good luck with your plans. #m and all the large companies have been doing things like this while most of you were just thought in your parents plans!
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I blocked you a while ago because i was sick of arguing with you over your snide, and ignorant comments on everything. I saw you commented and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you actually might have something useful to say... so i unblocked you.....Boy, was i wrong.

Let me help you understand something. 3M does not invent ideas. They buy them. Original wraps started this up years ago, and obviously made an offer OW couldn't refuse. Everyone and company has a breaking point. Who's making plans to overrun them? I just want them to stop printing and lying about it. What's so different about what they're doing and what Avery did? Please tell me. They both lied and denied any knowledge of what is going on. They're taking you, me and everyone else for a fool, and trying to pull the wool over our eyes so we can't see what they're doing.

They sit back, and buy ideas. Please don't make it sound like they put any effort into these things.

As for it being "Beneficial for my customers" Yet another thoughtless comment. 3M manufactures the vinyl. They offer rates that we cannot touch as a small business. They make the dealerships only use their prints, and their installers. No matter how loyal a customer is, 10 dollars a month added to a lease is obviously more attractive then a bulk 3 grand bill up front. The fact that they don't give my customers, who specifically request me, the opportunity to choose who they want is wrong. The fact they offer prices, that i cannot fathom offering is why they're beating me, not because I don't try to "woo" The dealerships. They also want to dictate the prices i charge, and make me take full responsibility for their crappy printed vinyl, no thanks.

I looked at your site, the one in your signature, and you print stuff on flip flops, and like pens...and pouches....(may want to reconsider a redesign...) so this isn't really effecting you..
If this directly effected you, i think you would be singing a different song. So please get your facts straight before you try to play devils advocate.
 
C

CanuckSigns

Active Member
I remember a few months ago on a thread someone was asking about what wrap vinyl to use, ColoradoSigns posted that they use 3M products and one of the main reasons being that most fleet work specs 3M materials be used.

What is everyone going to do when you run across this situation? I don't do wraps at all, but I have found that when I bid on jobs that spec a certain product be used, it's pretty much impossible to get the buyers mind changed as it would involve rewriting the spec and resubmitting it to all companies that are bidding.
 
signage

signage

New Member
Colorado I choose not to do vehicle wraps from the get go, I do signs! So you are saying 3M is the one not letting you do the work or is it the leasing company? From people I have talked to that have had the same thing done to them it was the leasing company. So which one is it? I know 3M has some good lawyers that most likely wrote the contracts but the leasing companies didn't have to sign them unless it was beneficial to them. I know some small bank presidents in my area that have deals with the dealers for leasing using them over the large banks. So like I said maybe rather than complaining on here every couple of months you should approach some of the local banks and dealerships and see what that gets you, and if you do not like what 3M is doing use a different product.
 
HulkSmash

HulkSmash

New Member
signage said:
Colorado I choose not to do vehicle wraps from the get go, I do signs! So you are saying 3M is the one not letting you do the work or is it the leasing company? From people I have talked to that have had the same thing done to them it was the leasing company. So which one is it? I know 3M has some good lawyers that most likely wrote the contracts but the leasing companies didn't have to sign them unless it was beneficial to them. I know some small bank presidents in my area that have deals with the dealers for leasing using them over the large banks. So like I said maybe rather than complaining on here every couple of months you should approach some of the local banks and dealerships and see what that gets you, and if you do not like what 3M is doing use a different product.
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money talks, 3M has more than me. I can't offer the prices they do. Don't you get it? How much do i have to dumb it down for you. I can't compete with what they're offering.
 
signage

signage

New Member
Coloradosigns said:
money talks, 3M has more than me. I can't offer the prices they do. Don't you get it? How much do i have to dumb it down for you. I can't compete with what they're offering.
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You say that the wraps they are doing are inferior and crappy, so yes you can compete with them! Price isn't everything, like I keep saying go to the smaller banks and locally owned ones and sit down and talk to them, most want to keep the economy in their area alive and well! How much do I have to dumb it down for you? Like is always said think outside the box! I get that you can not compete with price, but from what you are always claiming you can compete with a quality product produced locally!
 
HulkSmash

HulkSmash

New Member
Maybe you also missed the fact that 3M is also farming jobs from smaller shops by literally finding out who your customer is, and giving it to one of their bigger, and preferred companies. How unethical is that. Can't go to the bank to fix that now can I?
 
signage

signage

New Member
Most of my customers want quality work that is why they use me. So you are telling me that if you had a deal with the local bank to offer a better rate and use you for wrapping and came in at around they same price as the other deal, your customers would rather have a poor wrap that fails at getting them more work? If that is the case you may need to find better customers.
 
HulkSmash

HulkSmash

New Member
MY customers want quality work too, but aren't given an option to use me. I've approached dealerships. Trust me, all they care about is money since they're not the ultimate end customer. This is shoddy install work in my area, i can't talk for others.. maybe they're good?
 
JoshLoring

JoshLoring

New Member
Colorado...

Can you right up something as the sad little shop that got outsold but the very company you buy from as a protest 3M story.

We are using the forum all wrong... We need to use Facebook together to rapid fire this across the Internet. Our friends will share of we ask. If we can get everyone against it as a whole.. It will help.

Truth in numbers... Let's post and share to the world and wait until a stockholder sees it...
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
Coloradosigns said:
What's so different about what they're doing and what Avery did? Please tell me. They both lied and denied any knowledge of what is going on. They're taking you, me and everyone else for a fool, and trying to pull the wool over our eyes so we can't see what they're doing.
Click to expand...

Please don't imply for a second that what 3M is doing rises to the level of what Avery did.

Avery

  • Produced faulty high performance cast product that failed within a couple of months of installation requiring its replacement along with any other vinyl that touched it.
  • These failures were widespread and were reported in the thousands. Yet these reported failures were only a small portion of the actual failures. Every known failure required additional time and materials for the sign company to remedy. Every failure including the unreported ones damaged the reputations of the sign companies that produced them and cost them countless lost clients and future sales revenue.
  • Avery dismissed the failures as incorrect installation techniques and denied that they had manufactured defective product.
  • Avery allowed the continued sale of defective product while they corrected the manufacturing problem.
  • Avery avoided a class action product liability lawsuit by utilizing a divide and conquer approach to make minimal settlements through their distributors with all who actually complained on an individual basis.
  • To the best of my knowledge, Avery has never admitted to any wrongdoing or even apologized to its loyal customers.
3M

  • 3M has setup a major program to provide a significant improvement, from the buyer's perspective as well as the vehicle manufacturers and dealers, in the marketing and fulfillment of wraps for new vehicles.
  • 3M did not do this in secrecy and had suggested for quite some time that their wrap producing customers look at the same ideas and do something similar themselves.
  • 3M's program, as far as I can tell, does not impact vehicles already on the street, used vehicles, new vehicles purchased instead of leased, non-participating dealers, or vehicle buyers choosing to get their wraps done by a provider outside of the dealer's program.
Avery's acts, IMHO, rose to the level of civil if not criminal liability. 3M's acts amount to pursuing a business model that impacts on independent wrap producers negatively and which are possibly in violation of U.S. anti-monopoly laws. Those who feel that this is the case can and should pursue responses such as public complaint, boycotting or legal action.

But PLEASE, don't say that there is no difference between the Avery affair and the 3M program.
 
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rjssigns

rjssigns

Active Member
:goodpost: It will be interesting how all this plays out.

As some have stated it is a business model. I don't agree with offering products so inexpensively that others cannot compete because you can absorb the costs elsewhere.

My take is they are trying to get market share the same way the Europeans and Asians did with paper products. It is called dumping. They got their wish as it put a lot of mills out of business and cost friends their jobs.

The saving grace will be when these wraps start failing by the hundreds because of shoddy installation, fading, or the use(as some have claimed) of liquid laminates. Then it will not matter if it bumped your lease by only 10 bucks a month.

"The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the cheap price has been forgotten".
 
HulkSmash

HulkSmash

New Member
Fred Weiss said:
Please don't imply for a second that what 3M is doing rises to the level of what Avery did.

Avery

  • Produced faulty high performance cast product that failed within a couple of months of installation requiring its replacement along with any other vinyl that touched it.
  • These failures were widespread and were reported in the thousands. Yet these reported failures were only a small portion of the actual failures. Every known failure required additional time and materials for the sign company to remedy. Every failure including the unreported ones damaged the reputations of the sign companies that produced them and cost them countless lost clients and future sales revenue.
  • Avery dismissed the failures as incorrect installation techniques and denied that they had manufactured defective product.
  • Avery allowed the continued sale of defective product while they corrected the manufacturing problem.
  • Avery avoided a class action product liability lawsuit by utilizing a divide and conquer approach to make minimal settlements through their distributors with all who actually complained on an individual basis.
  • To the best of my knowledge, Avery has never admitted to any wrongdoing or even apologized to its loyal customers.
3M

  • 3M has setup a major program to provide a significant improvement, from the buyer's perspective as well as the vehicle manufacturers and dealers, in the marketing and fulfillment of wraps for new vehicles.
  • 3M did not do this in secrecy and had suggested for quite some time that their wrap producing customers look at the same ideas and do something similar themselves.
  • 3M's program, as far as I can tell, does not impact vehicles already on the street, used vehicles, new vehicles purchased instead of leased, non-participating dealers, or vehicle buyers choosing to get their wraps done by a provider outside of the dealer's program.
Avery's acts, IMHO, rose to the level of civil if not criminal liability. 3M's acts amount to pursuing a business model that impacts on independent wrap producers negatively and which are possibly in violation of U.S. anti-monopoly laws. Those who feel that this is the case can and should pursue responses such as public complaint, boycotting or legal action.

But PLEASE, don't say that there is no difference between the Avery affair and the 3M program.
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Fred, obviously Avery had some sort of emotional affect on you. Looks like we're going through something similar. But let me update your information. Original wraps 3M will wrap any vehicle. They're wrap for anyone.. no matter how old, or how new.
 
Fred Weiss

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
Coloradosigns said:
Fred, obviously Avery had some sort of emotional affect on you. Looks like we're going through something similar. But let me update your information. Original wraps 3M will wrap any vehicle. They're wrap for anyone.. no matter how old, or how new.
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So you're saying that if I buy a used vehicle from my local Chevy dealer that OW will wrap it and finance it?

And if so, how is that similar to selling you defective product and letting your reputation be harmed when it fails? One guy I know spent two months of giving up his evenings and weekends redoing 30 vans in one fleet in such a way that his client would not be unnecessarily inconvenienced. For his trouble he got coupons good for more Avery vinyl and $10 an hour. He had to pay for the non-Avery vinyl out of his own pocket that also had to be removed even though it had not failed. Of course there's an emotional component to it but there's also some major differences between something such as this and 3M choosing to compete in the wrap market.

I'm not saying that you don't have a legitimate grievance. But I do object to you trying to compare it to what Avery got away with eight years ago.
 
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