Sewing the hem edge on vinyl banners?

[phototec]

I can't help you solve that, but we bought a sewing machine and I've never sew in my life. Watched the woman who sold it to us demonstrate piles of sewing, came back to the shop, couldn't get it to sew anything. Fought that thing for 2 weeks. Bought about $50 worth of various threads at local stores. Nothing. Finally ordered the recommended thread that was in the manual. It came, put it on, and we started to get some sewing happening. Tweaked the tensions and it all fell into place.

I come to the conclusion that sewing is complicated [/QUOT

The machine came with V69 thread an it was sewing good with this thread with the larger needle #150, however the needle charts show that you should use a 110/18 needle with #69 thread, so I installed the #10/18 needle.

 

[phototec]

I sew for fun. A Lot. Like, if I could not work and just sew all day, I would.

I will give you one word of advice. DO NOT ADJUST THE BOBBIN TENSION.

If stitches are not coming out nicely, here is a list of things to check / adjust.

1. Are you using new needle? Needles need to be replaced fairly often, and they are cheap enough to swap on a regularly basis.
2. Is the needle installed properly? Check the manual for what direction the flat side is supposed to be.
3. Rethread the entire machine, including bobbin. Consult the manual for the threading diagram.
4. Try using a different thread in both the top and bobbin. Sewing machines can be picky with they type of thread they like.
5. Adjust the top tension slowly until you get the perfect stitch. DO NOT TOUCH THE BOBBIN TENSION. Its set by the factory, and i've never known of a single instance where it needed to be adjusted.
6. Make a note of the needle size, thread type, and settings once you get it dialed in.

You may have to go through this a few times before you get everything right, just don't give up!

Yes, I installed a new #110/18 needle per the needle Mfgs thread/needle chart for #69 thread. The machine came with a new box of 100 #110/18 Organ needles.

I think the needle is installed properly, there is NO flat side, the MSK-1245B uses ROUND needles, however the manual says to install the grove on the left side as you face the machine as best you can.

I followed the manual threading guide as good as I can, it's not very clear (see attached). The MSK-1245B seams to be a copy of the pfaff 1245, and I found a YouTube video showing how to thread the 1245.

Ok, I made notes every time I turned the bobbin adjusting screw, so I will set it back as it was, not sure it was set to factory specs when I purchased the USED machine, then I will work with the top tension and see if I can make that work.

You better believe that when I get the settings down and working right, I will document everything, and take close-up photos of the thread routing.

Thanks

 

[phototec]

go back to the beginning.

I think you needed to increase your top tension slightly, and that would have solved the problem. You like how the last image looks because it has a bigger hole due to the thicker needle. The needle you are using may be too small for the thread. I don't hem banners, so I'm not sure of the sizes, but I'm positive the thread you are using will have a recommended needle size.

Hopefully you'll be able to adjust the bobbin back to its original setting and start fresh with better results.

Well, several people have told me the bigger #150 needle is to big for VINYL banners!

And all thread charts say to use a #110/18 needle for #69 thread, and that's what I have in the machine NOW...

Yes, I will set the bobbin back as it was when I got the machine and see if that helps...

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Yes, I installed a new #110/18 needle per the needle Mfgs thread/needle chart for #69 thread. The machine came with a new box of 100 #110/18 Organ needles.

Organ or Schmedtz needles are the best.

I think the needle is installed properly, there is NO flat side, the MSK-1245B uses ROUND needles, however the manual says to install the grove on the left side as you face the machine as best you can.

Flat sided needles are usually for home sewing (and/or sewing/embroidery machines; the only quasi exception are the Brother PR series embroidery machine).

Typically you don't want the groves more then a quarter from center ("7:30" if you will).

Ok, I made notes every time I turned the bobbin adjusting screw, so I will set it back as it was, not sure it was set to factory specs when I purchased the USED machine, then I will work with the top tension and see if I can make that work.

The only way to really know is to be able to test the tension.

If the previous owner was messing with a wide range of fabrics and thread counts for the fabrics, chances are they have been changed, even if it was a smidge.

This may seem like a dumb question, but is everything clean? Bobbin case clean? The thread path cleaned etc?

 

[phototec]

Organ or Schmedtz needles are the best.

Flat sided needles are usually for home sewing (and/or sewing/embroidery machines; the only quasi exception are the Brother PR series embroidery machine).

Typically you don't want the groves more then a quarter from center ("7:30" if you will).

The only way to really know is to be able to test the tension.

If the previous owner was messing with a wide range of fabrics and thread counts for the fabrics, chances are they have been changed, even if it was a smidge.

This may seem like a dumb question, but is everything clean? Bobbin case clean? The thread path cleaned etc?

Yes, I cleaned everything very good when I got it home,

Thanks

 

[phototec]

BTW: I have been posting these issues on LEATHERWORKERS.NET also, as they do more sewing then the typical sign guy, and here is what one of the sewing experts had to say:

If you want to sew with #69 bonded thread, use a #18 (110) needle. A #150 needle is waaaaay too big! It is meant for #138 thread, which is twice the diameter of #69.

Also, do not use a leather point needle to sew vinyl, unless nothing else is available.

Your goal should be to hide the knots inside/between the layers. If the bottom stitches are too loose, tighten the bobbin spring a bit. If this causes the knots to lay under the material, increase the top spring tension to compensate. Tighter springs cause tighter stitches. Over-tightening causes puckering of the material. Find a happy balance, but use the correct needle/thread combination.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Also, do not use a leather point needle to sew vinyl, unless nothing else is available.

Size, I would make more of an issue with then type of needle point (sharp, ball etc). Unless you are trying to do this on the more promotional type of banners or your stitches per inch is really close together. But I would stick to your more general purpose needles, not really the specialty types. Which is what I mainly use anyway.

If the bottom stitches are too loose, tighten the bobbin spring a bit. If this causes the knots to lay under the material, increase the top spring tension to compensate. Tighter springs cause tighter stitches. Over-tightening causes puckering of the material.

I'm having a hard time with this one. Typically loose bobbin stitches means that it's missing the top tension. Loose top thread means that it's missing the bobbin tension. Yes, you can compensate with the inverse of that and still make it work, but if you start doing it that way, you can get out of whack again. Now if you are using the same substrate (or within a certain substrate type), then this isn't much of an issue. If you do a huge range of types, this can be an issue.

Find a happy balance, but use the correct needle/thread combination.

By mindful of the type of thread you are using, not just the size/weight of the thread. You have to adjust your tensions accordingly for that as well. Some threads have more "bounce" or "spring" to them then others. They can handle a different tension. This is where it will affect the bobbin tension as well, if you spool your own thread to match the top thread.

 

[Murray]

Sewing banners faceside down

I tried sewing a banner faceside down today for the first time and when I checked my back stitch (after about 6 or 8 inches in) I saw that the feed dogs were tearing the print to shreds so needless to say I stopped and flipped it back to faceside up. It sounded like a great idea as it will be so much easier to feed in straight with the hem actually visible as it is fed into the needles but the feed dogs are just way too aggressive on our machine anyway. I will definitely try it again when there is a white space between the edge of the print and the edge of the banner.

We always sew it face down (back on the top) - its the ideal way because then you can see exactly how much you are folding the edge over. Tried an attachment on the machine for a bit that turns the edge for you as you sew but in the long run did not like using it. Nowadays I can just fold it by hand as I go and cruise along but we do crease the edge ahead of time on the tables which makes things easier as well.

 

[SightLine]

That makes it sound like the machine is fighting to pull the material through. It should pull the material through quite easily when it is going. If for example we have a big banner and some of the rolled up banner is hanging off the table then the machine is having to drag that back onto the table and it will do just as you mention, it will chew up the face of the banner with the lower feed dogs as they are fighting to pull all that extra weight up onto the table. To an extent that can also be an issue if the sewn material is simply dropping off the edge of the machines table onto the floor and there is a lot of material weight then trying to drag it forward through the machine. We drag a couple of tables over in front and behind the machines table to give the material a smooth, flat, level surface to lay one when it is feeding in and out of the machine. When sewing you do not want to fight the feeding, in other words you only want to gently steer and guide it, do not pull against it. Could also be that the feed dogs teeth are just very very sharp as well which could also cause some damage to the pvc coating on the banner. I also realize that depending on the size of the banner that having tables both in front of and behind the sewing machines table can be impractical in which case you might need to improvise some. We have for sure.... we have rearranged our shop at times and not had any way to get any tables positioned. In that case I've used a rolling cart, rolling stools, or a second person to help support the banner. Of course if the banner is beyond some sizes then its going to be impractical to have tables long enough no matter what. We have done some 50 footers - in that case no way can I have 50 feet of tables both in front and behind the machine. Just have to then fold the long roll up a few times, start sewing, stop and unfold some more, start sewing again, stop and unfold some more, etc. Its a balancing act for sure.

Having a table setup like this would be fantastic but...... for 99.8% of sign shops this would not be a feasible setup at all just for sewing banners. Would make sewing huge banners a ton easier though. Pretty much the only place you will see a setup like this is a place that specializes in very large sewn things like sails. I've seen this sort even with no top side entry where the operator has to drop down in the hole around the machine and even where it is totally surrounded on all sides and the entire machine and operators seat and rotate. Those would be called a sewing pit or for the rotating ones a sewing turret.