Simple white window graphics. Is die-cut white vinyl alone sufficient?

[Mr.Ry]

Hi everyone. Total newbie to the industry here and I'm working on my first window graphics order. It is for two matching 3x5' windows with a simple nearly full-sized, single color vector art logo going on each (mirrored on each side), and another window which will just have the business name lettering on, also in simple white.

A few questions:

1) If I'm installing the graphics on the outside, should I be installing any additional layer of either clear vinyl or laminate over the external surface? Or is that only advisable if there are printed graphics on the vinyl?

2) Going off stock available from local suppliers available to me in eastern Canada, I'm considering using Avery Dennison HP 750 vinyl. Any arguments against this particular brand or media for this purpose?

3) Wet or dry install?

Thanks!

 

[Signstein]

Yes, normally an overlaminate is meant to provide UV, moisture, abrasion resistance for printed inks. The Avery HP 750 series is a "performance calendared" film. It's an intermediate film that will work on windows but will not perform as well as a cast vinyl like the Avery 950 series. I would install dry.

 

[mim]

1) The vinyl alone should be fine, the laminate is only needed for printed media that is correct

2) We use this vinyl for our cheapest, lowest quality signs. Usually temporary signs or coroplast yard signs. It's cheap, which is nice, but it's better to have a good quality product. I'd recommend looking at a cast vinyl vs. a calendared one, calendared being lower quality. It won't be an issue for what you're trying to do but the removal is worse and it tends to shrink and crack over time faster than the cast. Maybe others have a different experience with it but that's my advice. Also, since you're a newbie, this vinyl seems prone to tearing when handled, just a bit brittle. We use Oracal 751c and we love it, but it's definitely a different price point.

3) Dry apply should be fine but if you're a newbie sometimes the wet application can be helpful, but there's no need for it. Just wash the glass with windex and apply. I would avoid wet apply if temperatures drop to or below freezing though, hopefully Canada is past that point by now.

 

[Mr.Ry]

Ok, I'm really glad I asked about the media based on the above answers.

I am familiar with the differences between cast vs calendered vinyl, I just thought that calendered would be fine for any rigid, flat substrate (ie. most signage) while cast would be better for irregular surfaces (ie. vehicle wraps).

I'll start looking at my options for some cast vinyl, so thanks for steering me in that direction.

 

[mim]

Ok, I'm really glad I asked about the media based on the above answers.

I am familiar with the differences between cast vs calendered vinyl, I just thought that calendered would be fine for any rigid, flat substrate (ie. most signage) while cast would be better for irregular surfaces (ie. vehicle wraps).

I'll start looking at my options for some cast vinyl, so thanks for steering me in that direction.

I mean you aren't wrong, it will do the job and look nice, just with a few caveats and a shorter lifespan. I'm in New Hampshire (basically Canada) and with temperature fluctuations throughout the year we avoid calendared whenever possible because it's more likely to get wear and tear with the seasons. This is what I've been told anyway and I believe it, I've had to remove a lot of crappy calendered graphics from doorways over the years haha

 

[White Haus]

We use 750 for a lot of things, but if I were doing exterior cut window graphics I'd go with Gerber 220. Not sure if you've dealt with ND Graphics out your way (or how close Dartmouth is to you for that matter) but they're great folks to deal with here in Winnipeg anyways. If you get a relationship going with them they could potentially become a great resource/partner.

 

[White Haus]

I mean you aren't wrong, it will do the job and look nice, just with a few caveats and a shorter lifespan. I'm in New Hampshire (basically Canada) and with temperature fluctuations throughout the year we avoid calendared whenever possible because it's more likely to get wear and tear with the seasons. This is what I've been told anyway and I believe it, I've had to remove a lot of crappy calendered graphics from doorways over the years haha

I'll take calendared removals any day... it's usually a breeze where as cast is an absolute nightmare. Recently stripped a tractor we did 10 years or so ago with 220 and it was a pain, even with a steamer.

 

[Gino]

Being your first attempt, I'd do it with some rapid II. Play it safe. I don't know about avery products, but I'd be using ora-cal about 651 or 751 if you want high end.

 

[signheremd]

We use Cast vinyl for window applications - 10 year longevity, can handle temperature extremes (hot and cold), doesn't crack, easier to remove for changes. You do not gain anything by laminating it, so no need to laminate. Apply dry with simple, overlapping, squeegee passes. Avery makes great vinyl. I would go with their High Performance Cast 950 series rather than the 750 calendared. Understand that calendared is good for flat surfaces, but it is not dimensionally as stable as cast. Calendared manufacturing starts out with balls of vinyl and compresses them into shape. Vinyl has a structural memory, so calendared wants to return to a ball shape - thus it shrinks more and edges lift over time. Excellent for 4 year type applications and those without too much harsh sunlight. Cast is molten and poured and then rolled hot and cools to a flat shape - and thus more stable as it wants to return to a flat structural shape, though a bit of heat (aka post form heating) causes it to conform to the new shape of the surface on which it has been applied. This explanation is a bit oversimplified but does illustrate the basic difference between calendared and cast vinyl. There are now high performance calendared that are more dimensionally sustainable - like Oracal 3551 Rapid Air. These will conform to simple curves and are designed to be economical for fleet graphics on mostly flat surfaces. I still recommend cast as it better resists the effects of sunlight and temperature changes for longer outdoor life.

 

[Mr.Ry]

We use 750 for a lot of things, but if I were doing exterior cut window graphics I'd go with Gerber 220. Not sure if you've dealt with ND Graphics out your way (or how close Dartmouth is to you for that matter) but they're great folks to deal with here in Winnipeg anyways. If you get a relationship going with them they could potentially become a great resource/partner.

I do have an account set up with ND Graphics, though I've been leaning towards ordering from Grimco since I find their pricing to be lower on identical products, and that ND Graphics doesn't seem to carry Orafol products... but it would be nice to deal with and support Canadian business.

Being your first attempt, I'd do it with some rapid II. Play it safe. I don't know about avery products, but I'd be using ora-cal about 651 or 751 if you want high end.

Good call. I assume you're referring to using Rapid Tac II application fluid? Couldn't hurt to get some of that to have on hand. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Exactly the type of tip I was hoping to get here, so thanks!

Also, here's another question I have related my topic. The logo designs are 32" in the shortest dimension, which makes it just wider than possible on a 30" roll. I find most vinyl products don't come in a 36" roll size (but some do) and instead the next jump up is to 48" rolls. Furthermore, I seem to be incentivized, if not outright forced into purchasing a 50 yard roll because that's either the only size available, or for bulk discount savings. The job should only consume about 2 yards, so I definitely don't need that much, but can I confidently go with the larger roll size and expect it will get consumed? (assuming that I actually get steady business over the next few years) Or do any of you find that white not used often enough to justify such a large amount?

 

[JBurton]

Speaking below the arctic circle here, I'm wet applying anything than isn't bank hours. Once the temp hits 80F, and the humidity beyond that, the mask sags too much to expect a 3' piece to hold rigid while working top down, at least with 3m 7125. But I've got stock in rapidtac, so I may be biased...

 

[unclebun]

Your thread title asks if die cut vinyl alone is sufficient. It's not only sufficient, it is the correct choice. And, as mentioned, overlaminate is for prints.

As to whether Avery 750 is OK, it will certainly do the job just fine. Avery says that in Zone 1 (North America and Western Europe) it lasts 6 years on vertical surfaces. Zones 2 and 3 have shorter lives, but they are areas with more UV light and higher temperatures. Low temperature is not even discussed by vinyl manufacturers in regard to durability (except with regard to application temperature). I am in Missouri, which sees winter temperatures in the below 10 to 20 F and summer temperatures up to 105 or so. The shop where I started used Avery 750 (or the equivalent back 30+ years ago) unless a desired color only came in cast vinyl. The 750 performed just fine. It generally lasts 5-7 years. The 950 (cast) is stated to last 10 years, and we find it often lasts much longer than that.

You will find conventional wisdom say to go ahead and always use cast vinyl on everything "because the vinyl cost difference is negligible". But I was always taught that I wasn't selling vinyl to my customer. I was selling an advertising medium. The price should be based on the value of the sign, not the cost of materials. To the customer, the better value might be the sign that lasts twice as long because they don't have to deal with it as often. Since it lasts twice as long, it should cost more than the one that doesn't last as long. For other customers, they may not even keep the business open long enough that the calendared vinyl will fail. Or they may want to change the window lettering more often than every 5 years anyway. So you cannot make an absolute statement that you should always use one or the other vinyl.

On a side note, people often seem to want to put down cut vinyl and price it lower than their printed vinyl. But in reality a sign with cut vinyl (even calendared) may be a much better value given the short life of printed signs, and deserve their price.

A final note is that Avery 750 is a superior calendared vinyl to many other brands and types. Some of them will only last a year or two. Others may be far less flexible and harder to weed.

I don't do wet applications on windows. It makes the job take far too long. Better to practice your squeegeeing technique and make sure you are always using fresh, undamaged squeegees so that you can apply dry. If you feel you must apply wet, only use Rapid Tac II, which allows faster adhesion. And be sure you really wait forever to remove the application tape.

 

[unclebun]

Also, here's another question I have related my topic. The logo designs are 32" in the shortest dimension, which makes it just wider than possible on a 30" roll. I find most vinyl products don't come in a 36" roll size (but some do) and instead the next jump up is to 48" rolls. Furthermore, I seem to be incentivized, if not outright forced into purchasing a 50 yard roll because that's either the only size available, or for bulk discount savings. The job should only consume about 2 yards, so I definitely don't need that much, but can I confidently go with the larger roll size and expect it will get consumed? (assuming that I actually get steady business over the next few years) Or do any of you find that white not used often enough to justify such a large amount?

I would buy the 24" or 30" and find a place to break the graphic apart so it fits on the vinyl. But if you must cut it as a whole 32" high piece, Fellers sells 3M 7125 (cast) 48" wide by the yard. You will not end up using 48" vinyl often enough to use up a long roll.

 

[gnubler]

can I confidently go with the larger roll size and expect it will get consumed? (assuming that I actually get steady business over the next few years) Or do any of you find that white not used often enough to justify such a large amount?

Black and white are the only colors I buy in rolls. For single color cut vinyl graphics these two are the most common colors. I keep both calendared and cast in stock. Most storefront windows I use calendared, depending on the exposure. I always use cast on vehicles. I use Oracal 651 (cal) and 3M 7125 (cast) because they're always available from my suppliers.

 

[Mike Paul]

Use Cast vinyl and apply on the outside.
Don’t skimp for a couple $$

Charge accordingly.

Ever see a truck on the road or a window where the inside cuts are cracked running into the lettering?

That’s shitty material…

 

[Mr.Ry]

Your thread title asks if die cut vinyl alone is sufficient. It's not only sufficient, it is the correct choice. And, as mentioned, overlaminate is for prints.

As to whether Avery 750 is OK, it will certainly do the job just fine. Avery says that in Zone 1 (North America and Western Europe) it lasts 6 years on vertical surfaces. Zones 2 and 3 have shorter lives, but they are areas with more UV light and higher temperatures. Low temperature is not even discussed by vinyl manufacturers in regard to durability (except with regard to application temperature). I am in Missouri, which sees winter temperatures in the below 10 to 20 F and summer temperatures up to 105 or so. The shop where I started used Avery 750 (or the equivalent back 30+ years ago) unless a desired color only came in cast vinyl. The 750 performed just fine. It generally lasts 5-7 years. The 950 (cast) is stated to last 10 years, and we find it often lasts much longer than that.

You will find conventional wisdom say to go ahead and always use cast vinyl on everything "because the vinyl cost difference is negligible". But I was always taught that I wasn't selling vinyl to my customer. I was selling an advertising medium. The price should be based on the value of the sign, not the cost of materials. To the customer, the better value might be the sign that lasts twice as long because they don't have to deal with it as often. Since it lasts twice as long, it should cost more than the one that doesn't last as long. For other customers, they may not even keep the business open long enough that the calendared vinyl will fail. Or they may want to change the window lettering more often than every 5 years anyway. So you cannot make an absolute statement that you should always use one or the other vinyl.

On a side note, people often seem to want to put down cut vinyl and price it lower than their printed vinyl. But in reality a sign with cut vinyl (even calendared) may be a much better value given the short life of printed signs, and deserve their price.

A final note is that Avery 750 is a superior calendared vinyl to many other brands and types. Some of them will only last a year or two. Others may be far less flexible and harder to weed.

I don't do wet applications on windows. It makes the job take far too long. Better to practice your squeegeeing technique and make sure you are always using fresh, undamaged squeegees so that you can apply dry. If you feel you must apply wet, only use Rapid Tac II, which allows faster adhesion. And be sure you really wait forever to remove the application tape.

Found the Avery Dennison rep up in here!

All kidding aside, this was golden. Thank you for every word above, that's very practical information coming from an informed and critical mind, I can tell.

I would buy the 24" or 30" and find a place to break the graphic apart so it fits on the vinyl. But if you must cut it as a whole 32" high piece, Fellers sells 3M 7125 (cast) 48" wide by the yard. You will not end up using 48" vinyl often enough to use up a long roll.

Ok, so the graphic has a border, so to break it apart I would need to create a seam, which I was trying to avoid and I figured like gnubler mentioned above me (thanks for that, btw), that white could be commonly needed enough (black definitely) to justify an early investment in bulk, and I figured the 48" size would still be usable for smaller sizes as well. With that said, though, as I'm sure you all know 48" x 50yd's isn't exactly cheap (especially of the good stuff!), but again it is often the only option available if I want to go that big.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Mr.Ry]

Ok, so update on the situation, for those that are interested.

I had sent the client the quote based off the calendered vinyl prior to making this post. I had since receiving the advice here sent them an updated estimate based on pricing for cast, with an explanation of the reasoning and benefit behind the updated recommendation, but also advised that the other option was still on the table if their priority was cost-efficiency, and they've responded saying they would prefer to go with the first quote due to a tight budget.

So... Avery Dennison 750 it is!

 

[gnubler]

In the future, don't give the customer options like that. Just offer the best material for the job. Once you get more experienced you'll know what works and what doesn't, there's always some variable to deal with.

I don't use 48" rolls because my plotter is only 40".
99% of my cut vinyl stock is 30", it works for the majority of jobs.

 

[Mr.Ry]

In the future, don't give the customer options like that. Just offer the best material for the job. Once you get more experienced you'll know what works and what doesn't, there's always some variable to deal with.

Fair enough. I figured in this case it made the most sense to present it as an upgrade option as opposed to a "Oopsie, I need to increase the cost", which I'm sure was probably understood and agreed with in this circumstance on your part, but agreed on my part for in the future to just not present an underperforming option as a choice. I, of course, still have yet to experience what is underperforming, so I guess this could be my first opportunity for that.

I don't use 48" rolls because my plotter is only 40".
99% of my cut vinyl stock is 30", it works for the majority of jobs.

My plotter is a 53", so 48" rolls make sense for me, I think. It's a cheapo chinese brand (Vevor) so who knows, maybe this thing won't even last long enough to go through a roll. Anyone had much success with anything less than a Graphtec around here?

 

[unclebun]

I wouldn't stock a 50 yd roll of 48" vinyl. It's too hard to do routine jobs without waste, and putting application tape on 48" is a total pain compared to 24" or 30". You will very seldom find a job that cannot be done with 24" or 30" vinyl. You're only doing two 5' windows on this job, so I would buy the cut yardage of the 48" from Fellers. You only need 4 yards, but get 5 so you have enough to make an extra window if need be. If you want to keep vinyl in stock, just get a 24"x50yd roll.

Our primary cutter for cut vinyl graphics is a 30" Graphtec which we've used for 14 years. We have a Mimaki 54" cutter that we've used for 18 years. In the early years it was our only cutter, but now it only is used for cutting printed vinyl and the occasional 48" cut vinyl for lighted signs.

As far as only using cast vinyl for everything, I disagree. There are jobs you know that don't need 10 year life. And you can make more money while saving the customer money using calendared. After you've been in business for some time, you'll see that new startups very seldom stay in business long enough to wear out calendared vinyl, and even if they do, they often move or change their logo or what the sign says after a couple of years of experience. On the other hand there are established businesses which will prefer the longevity in their sign and are willing to pay for it. Or that are having you make a sign that will only be used temporarily. I would not use cast vinyl to make a coroplast sign for a promotion or for a realtor selling a house. You can get a feel for which will be the material to use as you interview the customer BEFORE you ever give them a price.