Summa S2 T140 oposX cut on holographic vinyl???

[Snap2000]

Spent all day today trying to get the Summa S2 to print-and-cut on holographic vinyl. I've tried everything, OPOS media calibration, with and without the yellow OPOS-filter. Looking at the OPOS monitor, every time it's over the holographic media the sensor jumps around from 200 to 1500 when you move it around. (back marks read at the max of 1950) Even with the shop lights off and the yellow filter on as recommended, media calibration seems impossible because of the holographic feeds back crazy results to the sensor.
I use Onyx RIP, so I was wondering if there is a mask fill option with white ink because that would solve the problem. OPOS works great on normal glossy vinyl and never misses a spot, but I think this super reflective holographic vinyl is a bit too much for it. I know the OPOScam model would also be able to read on holographic, but this is a relatively new Summa and I don't want to buy another.
Just wondering if I'm missing something or if anyone has some advice.

 

[Snap2000]

A few things I discovered today:
- Increasing the registration mark size helps a lot, a bigger size that covers the entire sensor helps it differentiate between black and white (I used 0.30")
- OPOS auto media calibration is useless
- You can calibrate the sensitivity manually by switching between OPOS sensitivity, and the OPOS monitor. Then comparing your results to the actual size of the registration mark. (0.30" in my case)
- Holographic vinyl is possible for OPOS to detect, but laminated holographic is impossible. No matter the sensitivity setting, or filter. The sensor jumps around from 500-1600+ at random, and can't detect between holo and black (black=1984). I do not think there is a way around this, this holographic is ultra reflective by itself, and the glossy laminate makes it way worse.

Attached is a graph I made with sensitivity levels VS indicated mark sizes. I found that automatic OPOS calibration was way inaccurate, and manual entries could give you a way more accurate sensitivity level. I am going to do more testing tomorrow to see if I can find any other conclusions. It's a shame I can't use OPOS with laminated holographic, as I laminate every single job that I do.

 

[balstestrat]

Well it's not meant for it so obviously you will face some challenges.

I would cut out marks with some white around them from white vinyl and apply them on top of the existing ones.

 

[rjssigns]

Not sure about holographic but in certain cases on reflective this works.
Use a pencil eraser and erase over the reg marks until dull/matte. Make sure the area is large enough to cover the scan width of the sensor.

 

[Goatshaver]

What holographic material are you using? I've had some success with running it. I found that I have to keep sheet sizes small, the more reg marks the harder time it has. I've always had to use the yellow filter to get it to work and lowering the sensor sensitivity. That being said, I haven't been able to get it to work on glitter at all, for pretty obvious reasons, just a bunch of little mirrors reflecting light in all different directions.

 

[Snap2000]

Not sure about holographic but in certain cases on reflective this works.
Use a pencil eraser and erase over the reg marks until dull/matte. Make sure the area is large enough to cover the scan width of the sensor.

Thanks I will have to try that, I also wonder if putting little squares of matte lam over the scanning area would help as well.

What holographic material are you using? I've had some success with running it. I found that I have to keep sheet sizes small, the more reg marks the harder time it has. I've always had to use the yellow filter to get it to work and lowering the sensor sensitivity. That being said, I haven't been able to get it to work on glitter at all, for pretty obvious reasons, just a bunch of little mirrors reflecting light in all different directions.

I'm using the printable holographic material from BigFishDM, it's VERY reflective stuff. Looking at it closely under a x20 magnifier, it has a rough surface I'm assuming to reflect lights in different directions for the holographic effect. Maybe similar to glitter vinyl in a way. While the OPOS sensor with a filter is barely able to pick up the registration marks with no lamination, with lamination it's just way too reflective.

I'm curious because I see people using Graphtec with no problems scanning holographic. Graphtec also provides reversed color marks, and white masked registration marks. But there seems to be no equivalent for Summa. I haven't been able to find it, but it would make sense for Onyx to have an option for white ink mask around registration marks. I know you can do this manually in Illustrator and GoSign, but this defeats the purpose of having a fast streamlined RIP process.

 

[balstestrat]

"Onyx to have an option for white ink mask around registration marks"

Doesn't exist... yet.

 

[Snap2000]

"Onyx to have an option for white ink mask around registration marks"

Doesn't exist... yet.

Great. I guess I'll be waiting for that someday, and if Onyx will ever add OPOS Xtra. Flexi already added support for it 10 months ago.

I guess my only option is to print unlaminated holo, or manually make files in illustrator that have a white flood under Summa marks. Which also doesn't work well at all when you're trying to make hundreds of copies. One way or another I'll need to figure out a use for this 54" roll of holo.

 

[Artflop78]

Not sure about holographic but in certain cases on reflective this works.
Use a pencil eraser and erase over the reg marks until dull/matte. Make sure the area is large enough to cover the scan width of the sensor.

A couple months ago I did a job with holographic vinyl and I did cut withe vinyl squares to stick around the summa marks and it works perfect but this option with the pencil I will try some samples later.

 

[jcskikus]

If have this problem especially with reflective and engine turned vinyl. I'd take matte white 3M 40C and make 1.5" squares with the box of the registration mark cut out and place over the area, which would only expose the registration square. Worked like a charm.

 

[PatriotWorks]

It's a shame I can't use OPOS with laminated holographic, as I laminate every single job that I do.

I repeated today what you did in December. Uggggh. New Summa owner here too. Very disappointed. I was able to scratch the OPOS marks with 0000 steel wool and it picks up all the marks.
But.....I did not scratch the long horizontal bar or rectangle OPOS Mark must give a distance off . So...the first decal was perfect and the rest were perfectly cut out ....in the wrong place.
Take the very same file in cheap vinyl...Arlon 510 Matte to be specific and it cut it out perfect.
While I was typing this response....I had an idea. Using the cheap vinyl, cut out the bar and install it over the holographic???
I'm healing from my wounds today but was also thinking of printing filler color in abundance as a background to knock down the glare.
Printing yellow under the OPOS did not work at all. Pasting white OPOS squares worked but the BAR is my problem now.
I didn't know I could detune the sensitivity levels so thanks for that!

 

[balstestrat]

I repeated today what you did in December. Uggggh. New Summa owner here too. Very disappointed. I was able to scratch the OPOS marks with 0000 steel wool and it picks up all the marks.
But.....I did not scratch the long horizontal bar or rectangle OPOS Mark must give a distance off . So...the first decal was perfect and the rest were perfectly cut out ....in the wrong place.
Take the very same file in cheap vinyl...Arlon 510 Matte to be specific and it cut it out perfect.
While I was typing this response....I had an idea. Using the cheap vinyl, cut out the bar and install it over the holographic???
I'm healing from my wounds today but was also thinking of printing filler color in abundance as a background to knock down the glare.
Printing yellow under the OPOS did not work at all. Pasting white OPOS squares worked but the BAR is my problem now.
I didn't know I could detune the sensitivity levels so thanks for that!

You can change the regmark mode from OPOS X(Y) to only OPOS and it will not use the black line.

 

[Goatshaver]

I'm not sure if you've tried the filter over the OPOS sensor, but it's worth a shot. I've had decent success cutting Briteline holographic vinyl and some other metallic material. I've found that making the print setup with the least amount of reg marks for it to read, Summa will put one about every 14" I believe or whatever you have it set to, I found that the more reg marks it uses the higher chance it has to get confused and throw the cuts off.

 

[PatriotWorks]

You can change the regmark mode from OPOS X(Y) to only OPOS and it will not use the black line.

DING! DING DING! We have a winner!
Everything I cut in holographic today came out perfect!~. I deleted the black bar in Illustrator but also changed my settings in Summa's setting program to OPOS only. Not sure if I can still print the bar to avoid the hassle of removing? The OPOS setting overlooks the bar you say?
Was told later by my tech the bar was invented to overcome a problem with subliminal printers and high heat bending the print.
The OPOS only and not the OPOS XY should be used for roll cutters.
Anyway ...Thrilled. Thanks for the input!
You can see how far the holographic material threw off the bar measurements telling the cutter the print was whacked when it wasn't.
The first pic was in the heat of battle yesterday trying to make sense of the mess. Notice the home made marks
The second pic was after changing the settings to OPOS only and removing the bar in Illustrator.
Still having a small problem with overcutting. Despite a setting of zero...I'm getting some.

Thanks, Problem Solver!

 

[balstestrat]

DING! DING DING! We have a winner!
Everything I cut in holographic today came out perfect!~. I deleted the black bar in Illustrator but also changed my settings in Summa's setting program to OPOS only. Not sure if I can still print the bar to avoid the hassle of removing? The OPOS setting overlooks the bar you say?
Was told later by my tech the bar was invented to overcome a problem with subliminal printers and high heat bending the print.
The OPOS only and not the OPOS XY should be used for roll cutters.
Anyway ...Thrilled. Thanks for the input!
You can see how far the holographic material threw off the bar measurements telling the cutter the print was whacked when it wasn't.
The first pic was in the heat of battle yesterday trying to make sense of the mess. Notice the home made marks
The second pic was after changing the settings to OPOS only and removing the bar in Illustrator.
Still having a small problem with overcutting. Despite a setting of zero...I'm getting some.

Thanks, Problem Solver!

You can let it print the bar. It just won't use it with OPOS selected.
Can you set overcut negative? Or do you have your knife too far out of the holder?

 

[PatriotWorks]

You can let it print the bar. It just won't use it with OPOS selected.
Can you set overcut negative? Or do you have your knife too far out of the holder?

Thanks for the info!
I'm not making pretty holographic scrap anymore! ;-)
Cutting holographic laminated vinyl is not for the faint hated or those with a partial roll. ;-)
I tried to make the overcut a minus with negative results. Zero was the lower limit.
My knife is retracted more than any cutter I've owned.
I'm experimenting with the knife settings to see what comes of it.
In real life, I avoid making 90º cuts in vinyl in favor of a radius.
I do signage for a local trucking company. I took over for a good friend and real artist who left the area.
He used an antique 20" Roland he bought for $40K back in the day.
Anyway...all his signage on the doors of the older trucks are split like stretch marks where there's a 90º corner.
I soften every sharp corner where I can.
Keeps the cutter down longer too!

 

[Snap2000]

Thanks for the info!
I'm not making pretty holographic scrap anymore! ;-)
Cutting holographic laminated vinyl is not for the faint hated or those with a partial roll. ;-)
I tried to make the overcut a minus with negative results. Zero was the lower limit.
My knife is retracted more than any cutter I've owned.
I'm experimenting with the knife settings to see what comes of it.
In real life, I avoid making 90º cuts in vinyl in favor of a radius.
I do signage for a local trucking company. I took over for a good friend and real artist who left the area.
He used an antique 20" Roland he bought for $40K back in the day.
Anyway...all his signage on the doors of the older trucks are split like stretch marks where there's a 90º corner.
I soften every sharp corner where I can.
Keeps the cutter down longer too!

Glad you were able to get it somewhat working, the Summa throws a fit with the holo material.

Coming back to this thread 4 months later, I was able to get holographic to cut correctly, but only for one row of decals. At two rows it would always be off by a large amount.
I must say I'm disappointed with my Summa, I bought it new with the idea that it would be the last plotter I would have to think about. Turns out it came defective from the factory, I had to get a new head under warranty because the blade was misthreaded into the head and could not be removed. (a known problem Summa has acknowledged.) But after using it daily for more than 6 months I've never had much luck with accurate cuts. Some days are randomly better than others, but it never seems very accurate. A common occurrence is it will cut the first row of decals perfect, and then from then on the cut will be off. I've done all the calibrations, followed all tips people have posted online, and I've even have done the calibrations in the service menu that they don't give out to normal customers. It'll drift off in small or large batches, it doesn't matter. I really don't think the problem is user error, I've had a lot of patience trying different things, and making sure it's calibrated. That aside I do love the perf cutting abilities, it always cuts clean edges with the tangential blade. I do like it overall a lot more than Graphtech, so I'm not sure if it's just my machine is busted or if this is typical.

I haven't messed with printed holographic since December because of the discouraging cutting results, but I may try again soon and report back if there are any changes. White ink certainly isn't thanking me since most of it has gone down the drain in cleanings.

 

[PatriotWorks]

Glad you were able to get it somewhat working, the Summa throws a fit with the holo material.

I haven't messed with printed holographic since December because of the discouraging cutting results, but I may try again soon and report back if there are any changes. White ink certainly isn't thanking me since most of it has gone down the drain in cleanings.

Your description of your Summa matches the POS brand new Roland GR-2 I purchased to a tee.
In two hours I produced a pile of scarp.
In two hours on the Summa we were friends.
Roland has forever ruined my appreciation of the product and service.
I got taken to the proctologist on that deal.
My Summa, on the other hand works perfectly other than shifting gears from knowing the Roland system to GOSign.

I have a four color and glad I do because I'm not high volume. Been told having white is like a lot of things in life...if you don't use it you lose it. ;-)

My work around in Holographic is:
1. Short runs.
2. Register the vinyl in the printer.
3. Print the gosign cut marks only.
Then, I use a cheap vinyl to place over squares and the bar. Arlon 510.
4. Then print the file normally, laminate and cut.
5. I go slow on the cut and just use the Kiss-cut....no perf.

I hate the fact the Roland advances an inch or so before it does anything but you gotta account for that.
I did have moderate success using steel wool to rough up the cut marks on holographic. It worked, then it wouldn't then it would. Wasting time or turning nice prints into scrap.
My new method just works.

 

[S2S]

Not sure about holographic but in certain cases on reflective this works.
Use a pencil eraser and erase over the reg marks until dull/matte. Make sure the area is large enough to cover the scan width of the sensor.

I agree..done that as well...it works...
Also if gloss laminated use the finest grit steel wool and rub all reg marks

 

[joelswork]

I haven’t tried my summas yet but the hp branded summa I have been able to get to work fairly consistently by just printing the registration marks in the corners, no bars or barcode. I also bumped up the size for the marks.