Thoughts on exterior sign specs?

[White Haus]

We're supposed to be creating a couple of signs similar to the attached for our customer.

What I'm thinking is use 6mm ACM as the substrate, digitally printed background (cast vinyl) and use 1/2" white acrylic w/ VHB for the letters, and some kind of acrylic sandwich for the logo.

Am I crazy to go w/ VHB on the letters/logo? Any concerns with that being adhering the acrylic letters to the laminate? I'd rather not get into tapping/studs etc. unless I have to, but want to make sure it's built well to last.

I don't know what the U-channel edging is all about but I won't be doing that. Customer is installing and will likely frame it in.

Any thoughts on the previous specs?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I've heard that you don't want to VHB on vinyl. I'd paint the background

 

[weyandsign]

1/2" thick letters will not look "3D". It will look like flat lettering, as if you just printed it anyway, unless you're standing only a few feet away. If they want dimensional looking letters they need to be 1.5" thick or more.
Other than that, If you do this, I recommend studs and nuts on the back of the letters.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Theres something in the spec about vandal resistant so maybe they have had issues in the past? You probably should tap and screw in the letters per spec to at least keep kids from plucking the letters off

 

[White Haus]

Thanks guys, appreciate the input. Any pointers on tapping acrylic? I'll get a price from Gemini but would also like to consider doing in house on our flatbed cutter/cnc.

I'm assuming reverse cut the letters, but not sure about the tapping part. Pre-drill holes w/ cnc then holes have to be tapped manually w/ a drill press?

I guess pads would also be an option but wouldn't result in the letters sitting flush on the face. (I feel like having spacers would be more of a risk for vandalism than vhb)

 

[White Haus]

I've heard that you don't want to VHB on vinyl. I'd paint the background

Good to know, thanks. I wish we could just have this painted but not really an option in this case.

1/2" thick letters will not look "3D". It will look like flat lettering, as if you just printed it anyway, unless you're standing only a few feet away. If they want dimensional looking letters they need to be 1.5" thick or more.
Other than that, If you do this, I recommend studs and nuts on the back of the letters.

Thanks. I agree 1/2" on that size won't do much but I'm just trying to come close to the spec for a new project.

Theres something in the spec about vandal resistant so maybe they have had issues in the past? You probably should tap and screw in the letters per spec to at least keep kids from plucking the letters off

Thanks. These schools are sometimes subject to abuse as they're in remote areas and I guess kids get bored and destroy things.

 

[John Miller]

If you mount the letters flat on the face, water will collect on the tops of the letters and eventually there will be water drain lines where it runs off. Gemini sells.5” diameter threaded acrylic mounting pads. Cut the letters in reverse, mill out.55” diameter holes.06” deep. Resin Bond the threaded pads to the letter backs. These will hold your studs, use the same layout to drill stud holes. The pads will hold the letters a bit off the sign face. Stainless nuts and washers on the back.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Tapping acrylic is a PITA if you aren't set up for it or don't have experience, if you want to mechanically fasten the letters, just get them from Gemini and save yourself hours of messing around.

I think vhb and silicone would be fine for these.

 

[weyandsign]

If you drill a hole in the acrylic, you should be able to screw a threaded stud into it without actually using a tap tool.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Could you print or paint second surface?

 

[kcollinsdesign]

John Miller's advice on mounting the letters is good. You will want a mechanical fastener (VHB tape will fail with vinyl because the plasticizers in the vinyl will eventually migrate into the adhesive). See if the client will accept an anti-graffiti film (such as Vandal-Guard) over the logo rather than laminating clear acrylic over printed vinyl (Acrifix and any double sided optically clear adhesive film that I know of will fail for the same reason VHB over vinyl will fail). Also consider painting the background with acrylic polyurethane (it will last much longer, printed vinyl film will fade and dry out within a few years). If you simply cannot paint (and do not have a body shop that could do it for you), use the best quality UV laminate you can find.

 

[unclebun]

If you mount the letters flat on the face, water will collect on the tops of the letters and eventually there will be water drain lines where it runs off. Gemini sells.5” diameter threaded acrylic mounting pads. Cut the letters in reverse, mill out.55” diameter holes.06” deep. Resin Bond the threaded pads to the letter backs. These will hold your studs, use the same layout to drill stud holes. The pads will hold the letters a bit off the sign face. Stainless nuts and washers on the back.

If you offset mount the letters, you get drain lines of aluminum oxide from the studs. So siz of one, half a dozen of the other. Except dirt is easier to clean off.

 

[unclebun]

I think you are straying too far from the spec in your ideas. They have specified a sign that will last a very long time. What you propose is at best a 5 year sign.

The board they have specified without using the brand name is Lusterboard. That's why it needs the u-channel edging. If you do that, and do it right, it will last 10-20 years or more. I'd talk to them about the 6 mm ACM to see if they will accept that. You might have to show them a piece of it so they can decide if it will work with their intended method of fastening and the structure.

I absolutely would not recommend a printed vinyl background. If you don't have the ability to paint it as specified, take the boards to an auto body shop and have them painted. They specified automotive paint, and expect the finish and lifetime of automotive paint.

The mounting of the letters as specified is easy to accomplish. Buy Gemini letters drilled and tapped for stud mounting. They will come with a drill pattern so you can drill the board. Then you can either find stainless steel machine screws with the same thread as the studs Gemini uses, in the correct length so that you can tighten them from the back of the board, or you can use the studs, use a washer and nut on the back, and if necessary clip off the excess stud and file or grind off the sharp edge of the cut.

The logo they are asking for is a tougher ask. It could be accomplished with router cut acrylic and Krylon Fusion paints, using cut vinyl stencils. But in reality, what they have asked for is just as vandal susceptible as surface painting. Scratch the front piece of acrylic with a vulgar word and it's done. Spray paint it and it's done. So I'd take the easy way and have a Gemini custom plaque made for it.

 

[Gino]

I think I would ask for a face to face meeting with the person who specced this thing out and other persons of authority. Some things make sense, while others do not.

It seems like you're trying to do these in-house to cut down some out-a-pocket expenses, but you're not quite set up for it.

uncleb has the best suggestions so far.

 

[White Haus]

I think you are straying too far from the spec in your ideas. They have specified a sign that will last a very long time. What you propose is at best a 5 year sign.

The board they have specified without using the brand name is Lusterboard. That's why it needs the u-channel edging. If you do that, and do it right, it will last 10-20 years or more. I'd talk to them about the 6 mm ACM to see if they will accept that. You might have to show them a piece of it so they can decide if it will work with their intended method of fastening and the structure.

I absolutely would not recommend a printed vinyl background. If you don't have the ability to paint it as specified, take the boards to an auto body shop and have them painted. They specified automotive paint, and expect the finish and lifetime of automotive paint.

The mounting of the letters as specified is easy to accomplish. Buy Gemini letters drilled and tapped for stud mounting. They will come with a drill pattern so you can drill the board. Then you can either find stainless steel machine screws with the same thread as the studs Gemini uses, in the correct length so that you can tighten them from the back of the board, or you can use the studs, use a washer and nut on the back, and if necessary clip off the excess stud and file or grind off the sharp edge of the cut.

The logo they are asking for is a tougher ask. It could be accomplished with router cut acrylic and Krylon Fusion paints, using cut vinyl stencils. But in reality, what they have asked for is just as vandal susceptible as surface painting. Scratch the front piece of acrylic with a vulgar word and it's done. Spray paint it and it's done. So I'd take the easy way and have a Gemini custom plaque made for it.

Thanks for the info, you make some really good points there. I've used Lusterboard in the past and hated every second of it - I don't know if any of our suppliers even sell it anymore. Would slice you up real good if you looked at it the wrong way and the aluminum ended up delaminating all the time.

I thought 6mm ACM would be a decent alternative since it has a bit of structural integrity but is still nice to work with and not terribly heavy. I've never once seen good quality ACM fail after using it for the last 10+ years.

I probably should've mentioned, the specs were from another school and they're not obsessively trying to match these specs, but I definitely don't want to give them a sub-par alternative. The logo will be different but not any easier to paint. This part I'd be comfortable reverse applying printed graphics to clear acrylic and mounting to another layer of white acrylic to create a sealed sandwich - we've done this for lots of their interior signs and I'm not terribly worried about that part.

There will be 2 signs back to back so there is room between them for stringers/bracing, and customer is looking after install. (They're capable)

I'll explore getting the sheets painted but will also look into using a cast vinyl if we can find a close enough match.

I'll keep y'all posted if this goes anywhere.

 

[White Haus]

I think I would ask for a face to face meeting with the person who specced this thing out and other persons of authority. Some things make sense, while others do not.

It seems like you're trying to do these in-house to cut down some out-a-pocket expenses, but you're not quite set up for it.

uncleb has the best suggestions so far.

I'm dealing with the architect/builder and will discuss everything with them. They're pretty reasonable and open to suitable alternatives.

 

[Moze]

You can absolutely use VHB (4941) for the letters and logo. Full coverage would be ideal.

 

[White Haus]

You can absolutely use VHB (4941) for the letters and logo. Full coverage would be ideal.

Thanks Moze. You wouldn't have any concerns about the other side adhering to vinyl or laminate? (Cast of course)

 

[Moze]

No, no concerns. The 4941 is formulated to resist plasticizer migration.

 

[Lindsey]

Thanks guys, appreciate the input. Any pointers on tapping acrylic? I'll get a price from Gemini but would also like to consider doing in house on our flatbed cutter/cnc.

I'm assuming reverse cut the letters, but not sure about the tapping part. Pre-drill holes w/ cnc then holes have to be tapped manually w/ a drill press?

I guess pads would also be an option but wouldn't result in the letters sitting flush on the face. (I feel like having spacers would be more of a risk for vandalism than vhb)

I'd let Gemini tap the letters. Tapping in-house can be time consuming. Plus Gemini will make it so easy by providing a drill pattern of where all the taps are that you can layout on the Alupanel for drilling the holes.

The "u-channel edging" is a length of u-shaped channel of PVC that you can use to "seal" the perimeter of ACM. We used to use a similar product called "edge trim" or "trimcap", that you attach with silicone for sealing the edges of MDO and Alumalite. There is a special "cutting/notching" tool for notching the mitered corners.