US Tariffs, Sigh!

[MikePro]

not in wisco, minus a few municipalities
that grass, however, i didn't smoke one bit during lockdowns due to the paranoia of respiratory issues if I did catch covid.

 

[Ron at Forest Litho]

Yeah the rules are not the same i

I've hated our so-called trade policy for decades. This goes back to the 1970's when companies were sacking American workers to export the manufacturing to Japan. We allowed them and then other countries (cough: China) to dump product into our market at prices below the cost it took to manufacture them. Wall Street loved it. But it decimated a lot of smaller American companies and hollowed out the middle class.

Now we're in a position where American consumers are dependent on cheap, imported products. And several of our domestic industries rely on illegal migrant labor. The agri-business sector is especially dependent on that kind of labor. The companies play a shell game with their paperwork to hide the fact most of those workers are paid cash off the books. There has to be some kind wink wink, nudge nudge arrangement with government regulators and inspectors to let this stuff fly. It is kind of funny how all the INS raids shown on TV the past week or so have taken place in big cities (in mostly blue states). The raids are obviously publicity stunts. Or Dr Phil doesn't want to go on an INS raid at a slaughter house.

Sign companies who hire American born workers and pay them on the books are subject to having OSHA, EPA, DOT, etc crawling up their ass. But a cattle processing plant in the Texas panhandle appears to be getting a pass on those hassles. If a migrant gets maimed on the job out there they just patch him up and send him home. If one of our workers gets seriously hurt on the job there's going to be all kinds of hell to pay.

Here's the sad thing: if we booted every illegal worker out of the country it's likely businesses like those cattle processing plants way out in the sticks would probably shut down. Working in a slaughter house is a pretty horrific, nasty job. I'll drive past these places on road trips from Oklahoma to Colorado. The buildings are hundreds of yards off the road yet even at that distance the stink is so powerful it makes me gag. American born people wouldn't do those jobs for what the migrants are getting paid. But even if they did I'm sure the workers comp insurance premiums on those American workers would be staggering. It's likely most of our meat would end up being imported (and subject to those tariffs).

Meanwhile, there is serious growth in the construction of new manufacturing plants in Mexico. We seem to be giving every foreign-born person the message they're not welcome here. If there is a big surge of job growth South of the border we may see millions of people self-deport. In the background America has a worsening fertility crisis. Birth rates are falling fast because we have priced so many young adults out of being able to afford parenthood. We're going to be a rapidly aging nation with a shrinking working-age population. That will be "great" for our tax base. The military might have to bring back the draft. Anyway, 20 years from now this country might be begging for any kind of immigrants it can get.



Haha. Doing anything at all, ever, in space is only going to be extremely expensive. The costs of getting anything off the ground and into orbit is insane.

Yeah, the rules are not the same in all the states. I'm in NYS and I once hired someone and it was as if I became a criminal for doing so. Its not just hire someone/pay him... All of a sudden you are subject to a ton of rules and regulation and filings of all sorts. AND you are now facing significant penalties if you mess up the filings and NYS payments ... all because you committed the obviously criminal act of hiring someone. Whoa! The total extra costs in money and time for having the audacity of having an employee is about 50% or more of what you are actually just paying him, plus now you really need an accountant. SO You had better need and really be making money because of your employees or it is not worth the hassle.

 

[Ron at Forest Litho]

I think we will avoid the tariffs. Mexico is working with us as of this morning. I have less hope for Canada with your current leadership but let's keep our fingers crossed.

We'll just have to increase my prices to account for tariffs if it comes down to that.

Down here, we may at some point, see enough relief from government cuts to make up for some tariffs if it comes down to that. Unfortunately, they removed the Lawn Dart Safety Committee so who knows what's next!

You have no choice, Tariffs are an unrelenting Tax on businesses and their end consumers. The money goes right into the Federal coffers and no one knows what it is used for after that, But you can be sure that the politicians benefit from having more money to distribute to their biggest donors via contracts, grants, gov purchases, etc. Then those beneficiaries can go to the politicians dinners and make big donations to their superpacs (and those are , of course, called pay-off bribes..... imperfectly legal, of course.)

 

[Bobby H]

Once the full effect of these tariffs kick in the results won't be pretty. So far American businesses and consumers have only been getting a small taste of these tax hikes (yes, tariffs are a TAX) due to so many on-again, off-again delays for various tariffs to go fully into effect. There are early warning signs though, such as a massive drop off in commercial trucking activity.

70% of America's economy is driven by consumer spending. Big price hikes on all sorts of things, including basics like food, could utterly kill consumer demand for discretionary purchases. People are already stressed with high living costs. They don't have the financial wiggle room needed to absorb a bunch of price hikes. So they'll just do without on things that aren't essential.

These 50% tariffs on imported steel and aluminum could be really bad for the sign industry (not to mention any other American industry that has to buy imported raw materials like aluminum). We would be forced to raise prices on lighted signs we make. Yet demand for our products could collapse if people stop eating out at restaurants and buying all sorts of stuff at retail stores. We're going to be caught in the middle of that problem.

If all those tariffs are still in effect by the end of this year we might be feeling the pain big time. All those products and supplies many companies raced to import earlier this year before tariffs took effect will be running out.

 

[Geneva Olson]

would anyone change their minds on these tariffs if income tax was abolished?

 

[ikarasu]

would anyone change their minds on these tariffs if income tax was abolished?

Would that not just be trading 1 tax for another?

If the government needs every citizen to pay 1k via income taxes a year to stay afloat... Then they put out tarrifs to collect that 1k (or more), and abolish income tax because if it... It's still costing you the same, if not more, they're just naming it differently.

But all the large importers who pass on the cost to the consumer wouldnt have to pay income tax, unless it's just personal income tax that's abolished.... So the larger billion dollar companies make more, pay less taxes, and the small / medium income people end up paying more.

I'm not an economist, and I'm sure it's more complex than that. But quick napkin math says abolishing income tax in favor of tarrifs helps the rich while screwing over the poor.... Unless no one passes on cost, but I can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Would that not just be trading 1 tax for another?

If the government needs every citizen to pay 1k via income taxes a year to stay afloat... Then they put out tarrifs to collect that 1k (or more), and abolish income tax because if it... It's still costing you the same, if not more, they're just naming it differently.

But all the large importers who pass on the cost to the consumer wouldnt have to pay income tax, unless it's just personal income tax that's abolished.... So the larger billion dollar companies make more, pay less taxes, and the small / medium income people end up paying more.

I'm not an economist, and I'm sure it's more complex than that. But quick napkin math says abolishing income tax in favor of tarrifs helps the rich while screwing over the poor.... Unless no one passes on cost, but I can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

yea, your napkin math aint mathin either. have you ever paid income tax in the US?

 

[XtremeXccessories]

yea, your napkin math aint mathin either. have you ever paid income tax in the US?

Excellent rebuttal.
*asks honest question*
*gets honest answer*
"lol ur dumb Canuck"
MikePro:


No, it wouldn't change my mind. At least with income taxes I can see what I'm paying. There's no way of knowing how much tarrif costs have filtered down to every single product we buy, even if it's made/grown in America.

 

[ikarasu]

yea, your napkin math aint mathin either. have you ever paid income tax in the US?

Sure have, remember I lived there for a decade.

My napkin math dumbed it down to 1k, an even number just to represent whats needed. It's much harder To explain in percentages.

Lets ignore all numbers. If the government needs a certain amount of money from income tax, In order to remove income tax that money has to come from tariffs. If tarrifs bring in less money.... They wont be able to remove income tax, so therfor they need to bring in more money, or equal - So at best...you're paying the same thing, at worst youre paying more. Whats the point of removing 1 tax for another? Everything goes up for the small guy - the big corporations will be paying less income tax (Yes, business's pay a form of income tax), and they pass the tarrif onto you - Which means you're not paying more in taxes, while the huge companies importing the products are paying way less. So the rich pay less taxes, the poor pay more - Does that seem like a good thing to you?

 

[Geneva Olson]

Excellent rebuttal.
*asks honest question*
*gets honest answer*
"lol ur dumb Canuck"
MikePro:
View attachment 179004

No, it wouldn't change my mind. At least with income taxes I can see what I'm paying. There's no way of knowing how much tarrif costs have filtered down to every single product we buy, even if it's made/grown in America.

are you aware you've been paying on tariffs?

 

[Geneva Olson]

Sure have, remember I lived there for a decade.

My napkin math dumbed it down to 1k, an even number just to represent whats needed. It's much harder To explain in percentages.

Lets ignore all numbers. If the government needs a certain amount of money from income tax, In order to remove income tax that money has to come from tariffs. If tarrifs bring in less money.... They wont be able to remove income tax, so therfor they need to bring in more money, or equal - So at best...you're paying the same thing, at worst youre paying more. Whats the point of removing 1 tax for another? Everything goes up for the small guy - the big corporations will be paying less income tax (Yes, business's pay a form of income tax), and they pass the tarrif onto you - Which means you're not paying more in taxes, while the huge companies importing the products are paying way less. So the rich pay less taxes, the poor pay more - Does that seem like a good thing to you?

wtf are you talking about? he's talking about abolishing the IRS. as in no more income tax.
Have you seen the revenue brought in from the tariffs? and the question is still out there: what have you seen go up as a result of the tariffs?

Did you know that the tax breaks in the big beautiful bill are for the middle class? not the rich?
Did you know that if foreign companies manufacture their items here, rather than overseas there's no tariffs?

I guess those things blow your "new tax" out of the water.

did you know we've had tariffs on items before trump showed up? or are you just up in arms "because trump"?

 

[MikePro]

^definitely the latter. some people take their vaccinations through their eyesocket.

 

[ikarasu]

wtf are you talking about? he's talking about abolishing the IRS. as in no more income tax.
Have you seen the revenue brought in from the tariffs? and the question is still out there: what have you seen go up as a result of the tariffs?

Did you know that the tax breaks in the big beautiful bill are for the middle class? not the rich?
Did you know that if foreign companies manufacture their items here, rather than overseas there's no tariffs?

I guess those things blow your "new tax" out of the water.

did you know we've had tariffs on items before trump showed up? or are you just up in arms "because trump"?

wtf are you talking about? he's talking about abolishing the IRS. as in no more income tax.
Have you seen the revenue brought in from the tariffs? and the question is still out there: what have you seen go up as a result of the tariffs?

Did you know that the tax breaks in the big beautiful bill are for the middle class? not the rich?
Did you know that if foreign companies manufacture their items here, rather than overseas there's no tariffs?

I guess those things blow your "new tax" out of the water.

did you know we've had tariffs on items before trump showed up? or are you just up in arms "because trump"?

It baffles my mind how stupid some people can be when it comes to tariffs.

Abolish the irs, let's say they bring in 100 billion dollars a year. that money is going to come from somewhere. Let's say tarrifsc bring in 100 billion dollars a year, you pretty much just swapped one tax for another... But the problem is the middle class and lower class are the ones that are paying a much higher portion of that tax. So where's the benefit?

It's a very simple concept, if you can't understand it I'm sorry but I don't know how to explain it to you in simpler terms.... Either the IRS pulls in more money or tarrifs pull in more money... Doesn't matter, either way it's a tax you have to pay, and if tariffs are cheaper then he sure as hell isn't going to abolish the IRS when he's already increasing the countries max debt by billions.

I'm well aware every country has tariffs, if you can't see the importance of selective tariffs versus tariffing every single item coming from a country you're further lost than I thought.

 

[John Miller]

Geneva, If income tax was abolished I don't think I'd have a problem with tariffs.

 

[MikePro]

yikes. now we gettin’ econ lessons from someone that chooses to live in Canada.
i wonder how much less you’ll pay in taxes when you become a state.

 

[ikarasu]

yikes. now we gettin’ econ lessons from someone that chooses to live in Canada.
i wonder how much less you’ll pay in taxes when you become a state.

Coming from Canada's Mexico, not much of a threat.

Someone should teach you guys econ in school, it seems like the basic principal of it is lost on so many.... I thought Canadas educational system was lacking, but at least here they teach basic economy and useful skills.

No wonder so many people don't realize tarrifs are a tax and eat every word out of Trump's mouth.

I still don't get why you guys are perfectly fine with him illegally imposing tarrifs and bypassing the other branches of the government... Republican, Democrat, doesn't matter - you shouldn't be ok with anyone acting like a dictator.

It'll be interesting to see what the supreme Court rules about it now that he's lost his first appeal.

 

[ProSignTN]

yea, your napkin math aint mathin either. have you ever paid income tax in the US?

Yes I Have. But I did not deduct the Kool-Aid, cause I DID NOT drink it.

 

[Geneva Olson]

Coming from Canada's Mexico, not much of a threat.

Someone should teach you guys econ in school, it seems like the basic principal of it is lost on so many.... I thought Canadas educational system was lacking, but at least here they teach basic economy and useful skills.

No wonder so many people don't realize tarrifs are a tax and eat every word out of Trump's mouth.

I still don't get why you guys are perfectly fine with him illegally imposing tarrifs and bypassing the other branches of the government... Republican, Democrat, doesn't matter - you shouldn't be ok with anyone acting like a dictator.

It'll be interesting to see what the supreme Court rules about it now that he's lost his first appeal.

ok. Would you rather pay tax on what you make? or tax (tariff) on what you spend?
perhaps basic econ has been lost on you.

 

[chester215]

Right now aren't we doing both??

 

[Geneva Olson]

Right now aren't we doing both??

we always have been. But if trump abolishes income tax, then we have one.