We are adding subcontractors

[nolanola]

Hello Everyone,

We have recently began out sourcing some projects to subcontractors. As we have grown this group and are working with a wider variety of people and companies we are finding there is too much variance between communication methods, techniques, dependability, etc. We've been left with the feeling a few times that we are 'giving' more than they are despite us being the customer.

We are thinking a good first step would be to layout a contract that is used with every subcontractor mentioning how we will work together.

Does anyone have and advice to share on streamlining working with subcontractors?
Do others use a form system?

Those who maybe work as subcontractors, what advice can you share to make this type of relationship easier and more equitable?

Thank you for the help!

 

[unclebun]

I think it really depends on what kind of subcontractor you are talking about. Some of them, you will be buying a product from, which you have designed. That would be the service providers who make decals, banners, signs, and the like, such as some of the vendors here or signs365. They usually dictate the terms to you.

Then there are the ones to whom you will dictate the terms. These would be installers or electricians, etc. In that case you have to design, provide the sign, describe what you want them to do, and then they will do just that thing for you.

 

[nolanola]

So we're talking about the second situation you mentioned.
Removing or installing signage, performing service on electrical signage, site surveys, etc.

Other question:
who is responsible when things go wrong? i.e. sign being damaged during a service call

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

So we're talking about the second situation you mentioned.
Removing or installing signage, performing service on electrical signage, site surveys, etc.

Other question:
who is responsible when things go wrong? i.e. sign being damaged during a service call

To answer your follow-up, in our jurisdiction... You are. You are Liable to your Client and your Sub is liable to you.

 

[unclebun]

To answer your follow-up, in our jurisdiction... You are. You are Liable to your Client and your Sub is liable to you.

That would be true everywhere. To your customer, the sub IS you. So if the sub screws something up, you are responsible for making it right with the customer. Getting your sub to pay for it or whatever is your problem, not the customer's.

 

[Johnny Best]

My biggest pet peeve when I did sub contracting work was getting paid after job was accomplished. The contractor did not want to pay me until they got paid by the customer. I would never agree to those terms or never do work for that contractor again. If your subcontracting, get a big enough deposit to pay off your subs when the work is done. Or take it out of your own pocket to pay.

 

[Z SIGNS]

My biggest pet peeve when I did sub contracting work was getting paid after job was accomplished. The contractor did not want to pay me until they got paid by the customer. I would never agree to those terms or never do work for that contractor again. If your subcontracting, get a big enough deposit to pay off your subs when the work is done. Or take it out of your own pocket to pay.

Yes this was my problem doing installs for the big sign companies.
Waiting for the money and doing business on their terms never worked out for me.
I will still do installs for others but on my terms.
Terms:
Send the check along with the sign. Tape it to the sign for safekeeping. I won't cash the check until the sign is installed and customer signs off on the install.
It's a very fair arrangement but not many of the big guys want to do that so I don't do much anymore.
And yeah you are responsible for everything.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Not sure what you mean by variance in communion methods? Call, e-mail or text someone... sounds simple enough for me unless I'm missing something.

You didn't mention what kinds of signs you have them install... that's important info. If you are doing small stuff that a Fast Signs or small local guy can do... use them over the big guys in town. Most of my projects are large pylon signs and hi-rises so I'm stuck with usually one sign company in a town with equipment large enough to reach and they know it.

Honestly, no one has time to sit there and read some contract about how to work with you. Best advise is to call, talk to someone about deadlines and what you're needing and make sure they can help you. Follow it up with an e-mail. If they text, then text them. Then follow up on the job by calling them to make sure it's still moving on the schedule. You are the project manager... so you have to manage it and the subs by making sure things are staying on schedule. Just assume whatever timeframe the sub tells you, you can just go ahead and double that.

 

[Zendavor Signs]

Yes this was my problem doing installs for the big sign companies.
Waiting for the money and doing business on their terms never worked out for me.
I will still do installs for others but on my terms.
Terms:
Send the check along with the sign. Tape it to the sign for safekeeping. I won't cash the check until the sign is installed and customer signs off on the install.
It's a very fair arrangement but not many of the big guys want to do that so I don't do much anymore.
And yeah you are responsible for everything.

I heartily agree with this. Other sign companies are often the worst customers - extremely demanding, poor communication and slow to pay. One project we did for a large national company had channel lettering that needed wiring work done inside the wall. Contractors were going to close up the wall very shortly. I told national sign company "we need to get moving, they are closing up the wall and we need to get the work done and ask for an access panel for service". He replied "OK, I will get approval." I week later he called me back with approval - I told him the wall was now closed up and we were not interested in doing the project

No thanks, my job is much less stressful taking care of local customers.

 

[petrosgraphics]

the large companies doing the build will 1st request from us, a certificate of insurance . they will then Email renderings of the proposed signage. if we are interested in doing the project , we will be sent spec sheets to go out and physically survey the site. at a cost to them. our costs for the install will be based on our survey. terms of payment by these companies is usually 30 to 60 days. most often they will send an agreed upon deposit . there is more to it than this, but if it works for you they become a lot easier to handle. we have been doing these type of projects for a number of years.

 

[Hero Signs]

You do need to have:

1. survey forms that are complete and easy to use.
2. ensure subs have insurance
3. I agree with at least half payment when done with the job. I only have 4 companies I work Net 30, But they are my largest clients
4. I don't accept NET 30 on a survey they are low dollar and need prompt payment.
5. Build a redundancy of vendors, keep track of capabilities. Better to keep the customer happy than lose a job
6. You need a good Houston area company, www.intrepidsigns.com shameless bump
7. Don't be attracted by the lowest price vendor, unless the job is a low price job.
8. Talk ensure the company understands the scope of work

I have been building up my network over the past few months and it is tough to find mid market to high end quality at mid market prices.
If your company is going to install signs from a vendor, get drawings or photos, many variations in MFG process

That is all I can think of for now

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You can always build your business around what you can do yourself in house and skip the stress of trying to do jobs that require a bunch of outside vendors. As demand increases for certain things then add employees. Cross train everyone so they can all float as the work dictates.

 

[FireSprint.com]

You can always build your business around what you can do yourself in house and skip the stress of trying to do jobs that require a bunch of outside vendors. As demand increases for certain things then add employees. Cross train everyone so they can all float as the work dictates.

Depends on your business model. This is a great way to operate if you can do that and keep enough work coming in. Some companies work on a full service business model (Which I would expect them to charge more for).

In terms of the subcontractors, make things as clear as you can. Put as much in writing as possible.

Subcontractors, employees, and business owners need the same things to run. Stability, clarity, and consistency. The more of these you give anyone, the more they can give you back.

 

[mkmie]

You do need to have:

1. survey forms that are complete and easy to use.
2. ensure subs have insurance
3. I agree with at least half payment when done with the job. I only have 4 companies I work Net 30, But they are my largest clients
4. I don't accept NET 30 on a survey they are low dollar and need prompt payment.
5. Build a redundancy of vendors, keep track of capabilities. Better to keep the customer happy than lose a job
6. You need a good Houston area company, www.intrepidsigns.com shameless bump
7. Don't be attracted by the lowest price vendor, unless the job is a low price job.
8. Talk ensure the company understands the scope of work

I have been building up my network over the past few months and it is tough to find mid market to high end quality at mid market prices.
If your company is going to install signs from a vendor, get drawings or photos, many variations in MFG process

That is all I can think of for now

Thanks I was just looking for an installer in the Houston area.

 

[nolanola]

This is all great information. Thank you everyone!

One other aspect of this that is subjective but we would like to get opinions on.
Where is the line of letting a subcontractor go?

Is there a structure that any of you use for this?
Do you let the subcontractor know of this system before hand?

What level of mistake calls for not working with someone again?
Breaking a sign? Missing a deadline? Having work fail later?

 

[nolanola]

Also, to clarify, we are subcontracting out primarily electrical signage projects or too large or high up projects for our team to handle alone. LED retrofits, bulb and ballast replacements, pylon sign face replacements, etc.

We pay our subcontractors right after their work is done. So far, waiting for net 30 or 60 day payment with nationwide companies has worked for us since we also do plenty of local work.

As far as people who have mentioned not agreeing to 30, 60, or 90 day pay agreements, what are your experiences in negotiating other terms?

 

[Hero Signs]

This all depends on you it also depends on how big the mistake is. my team is made mistakes which have gotten me fired from jobs we've also made some mistakes and fixed it.
the bad thing about the installation in industry is you'll learn you'll find which employees you need to fire on installs it seems like they want to get unemployment so they purposely do things wrong. Just my observation, they won't quit I don't know why they don't have the integrity where the manhood just to quit.

However like I said it's up to you and the severity of the mistake. the guys you want to keep obviously you're the ones who communicate with you and give you an update give you pictures that evening or the very next morning.

I can't use a guy who had to pull information from.

This is all great information. Thank you everyone!

One other aspect of this that is subjective but we would like to get opinions on.
Where is the line of letting a subcontractor go?

Is there a structure that any of you use for this?
Do you let the subcontractor know of this system before hand?

What level of mistake calls for not working with someone again?
Breaking a sign? Missing a deadline? Having work fail later?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

This is all great information. Thank you everyone!

One other aspect of this that is subjective but we would like to get opinions on.
Where is the line of letting a subcontractor go?

Is there a structure that any of you use for this?
Do you let the subcontractor know of this system before hand?

What level of mistake calls for not working with someone again?
Breaking a sign? Missing a deadline? Having work fail later?

They are subcontractors... there is no "letting then go". You just stop giving them work and use someone else.

Now, I have pulled active jobs from a sub when they take too long. If they go past deadlines over and over I'll call someone else and have them pickup the signs from them and do the job. I've done that only three times in the last few years. I wonder how it feels having you competitor come to your shop to get signs that you failed to handle and knowing the other sign company knows the reason they are there....