Weeding after laminating issue

[upandup]

I have learned a lot over the last couple months with trial and error, but this one issue has me stumped. I am using a Summa 4sx to print then laminating with Arlon 3220 and finally contour/flexcutting with a Summa D75.

When I was initially testing before laminating I never had an issue with weeding - just grabbed a corner and pulled off the excess with no issue. Ever since I started laminating though the weeding is a giant pain. I can see as I am weeding that there are little "fingers" of adhesive where the contour cuts are that are pulling my stickers off as I weed. I have to go extremely slowly, which isn't a big deal other than when I am in full production it will have a nasty time impact.

I'm wondering - is this just the way it is when you weed a laminated print? Or am I missing something in the process that will minimize this issue?

Just as an FYI, my contour cuts are definitely going all the way through with a slight score on the backing.

 

[gnatt66]

i can only offer this: even though simple shapes might weed easily, you simply cannot change blades often enough. i use inexpensive blades and change them often. i can weed 1/2" text (print/lam) easily with a new blade..with a month old blade its torture.

 

[Behrmon]

What do you lam with and at what pressure? We use a lot of 3220 with good results.

 

[kiowaas]

We've always had that problem as well. We never can weed a printed laminated media as easily as high perf vinyl. After trying different settings, new blades and other variables we just chalked it up to the nature of the beast.

 

[toomeycustoms]

Same issue. We have the problem with any print media, laminated or not. We've tried Oracal 3164, 3165ra, 3651, 3551ra with the same results. It is so slow and time consuming to weed whether we laminate or not.

 

[TimToad]

If you are leaving score marks in your liner, then your pressure is too high and you are prematurely dulling your blades.

I can understand how its hard to move the media from the printer to the laminator to a separate plotter, but working with sharp blades and the right cutting pressure should make it easier regardless of which device cuts the contour.

 

[upandup]

Thanks for everyone's input, it helps a lot.

i can only offer this: even though simple shapes might weed easily, you simply cannot change blades often enough. i use inexpensive blades and change them often. i can weed 1/2" text (print/lam) easily with a new blade..with a month old blade its torture.

I am using the original blade that I bought the D75 (used) with. I will give this a shot.

What do you lam with and at what pressure? We use a lot of 3220 with good results.

I am using the US Tech Pro 65S, which I love by the way. Practically no learning curve and setting heat assist at 100 degrees producing no silvering whatsoever, plus great customer service. I had the issue when I was attempting to use the big squeegee as well though, so maybe it is just the combo of vinyl to overlaminate.

We've always had that problem as well. We never can weed a printed laminated media as easily as high perf vinyl. After trying different settings, new blades and other variables we just chalked it up to the nature of the beast.

This is what I was unfortunately assuming. I think I am going to have to tweak my designs to get rid of the smaller cutouts.

If you are leaving score marks in your liner, then your pressure is too high and you are prematurely dulling your blades.

I can understand how its hard to move the media from the printer to the laminator to a separate plotter, but working with sharp blades and the right cutting pressure should make it easier regardless of which device cuts the contour.

I have it set where it is barely cutting through, which leaves a super faint score, so I think I have it set correctly, but I definitely need to try with a new blade to see if it helps at all.

 

[Behrmon]

I've never used heat on the lam personally.

 

[reQ]

Never have problems. Printing & cutting text down to 1/4". Let your prints dry/outgass before you will laminated them, otherwise your film will be to soft and blade won't make clean cuts on small details.

 

[eahicks]

half of what we do is contour cut/laminated decals. Have no issues as long as blade is sharp and cut pressure is dialed in, on most media. 3M 180 with lam has some issues with really small text, as there is very little actually holding the vinyl to the liner. You just have to be careful.

 

[upandup]

Never have problems. Printing & cutting text down to 1/4". Let your prints dry/outgass before you will laminated them, otherwise your film will be to soft and blade won't make clean cuts on small details.

The Summa doesn't outgas since it is a thermal process, but it definitely seems my laminate is soft, but I don't think it has anything to do with the print.

half of what we do is contour cut/laminated decals. Have no issues as long as blade is sharp and cut pressure is dialed in, on most media. 3M 180 with lam has some issues with really small text, as there is very little actually holding the vinyl to the liner. You just have to be careful.

This is what is perplexing me. Like I mentioned earlier, if I contour the same design in my vinyl pre laminate it weeds beautifully, but post lam is horrible. I have tried every pressure imaginable (very light to very heavy and everything in between) and even tried a new blade with no success. It seems obvious it has everything to do with the laminate. Possibly having too much adhesive? Is there any way to increase the thickness of the cut to create a greater space between the two contoured pieces? The adhesive just seems to be reconnecting even after being cut.

How does environment affect plotting? The area where my plotter is at is usually 65 degrees or less. Do warmer environments help?

 

[eahicks]

What degree blade are you using? If you do a lot of cutting on laminated film, you should be using a 45.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Also is your blade out enough. If your blade is making it all the way through but your putting a lot of pressure down with the tip of the pen you might be mushing the cut sides together as you cut them. This usually only happens if we do really thick stuff. Then we switch to a 60

 

[upandup]

What degree blade are you using? If you do a lot of cutting on laminated film, you should be using a 45.

Good to know. I actually bought some 45 degree blades, but I've been using the one that came with it. I think it is a 36 degree. I'll switch to the 45.

Also is your blade out enough. If your blade is making it all the way through but your putting a lot of pressure down with the tip of the pen you might be mushing the cut sides together as you cut them. This usually only happens if we do really thick stuff. Then we switch to a 60

I was actually going to ask this question. When I bought the plotter I was told to have it out just enough to feel it on the back of my fingernail. I am flexcutting around my design though, so I brought it out a little farther. I then noticed that as it was flexcutting along the bottom of my design that the knife holder was scratching my decals. I then brought it out maybe a 1/16th of an inch or slightly less and adjusted my pressures. This made the scratching go away, but could that be part of my issue?

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

I believe that was what we were having issues with. Sounds like the same thing. I thought the blade holder was mushing the adhesive back together after it cut it. Or there was too much pressure around the cut. The issue could also be with the adhesive on the lam and the pinch rollers. Try to keep the pinch rollers off your graphics as much as possible. Sometimes I leave an inch or so in the middle of so I can run the roller without going over stickers.

 

[bob]

...When I bought the plotter I was told to have it out just enough to feel it on the back of my fingernail. I am flexcutting around my design though, so I brought it out a little farther. I then noticed that as it was flexcutting along the bottom of my design that the knife holder was scratching my decals. I then brought it out maybe a 1/16th of an inch or slightly less and adjusted my pressures. This made the scratching go away, but could that be part of my issue?

There is much folk wisdom about just how far the blade should stick out. Unfortunately vary little of it is based in reality. The mythical fingernail test is certainly in this category.

Down pressure is the critical factor, not so much blade exposure. In theory, if the down pressure is properly set and there is sufficient blade exposed to cut through the media and leave an ever so slight indentation on the backing without dragging the blade holder over the media, then further blade exposure is harmless but unnecessary. That's the theory anyway.

A simple way to set at least the starting point for blade exposure is to take the blade holder [with a blade] in your hot little hand and, holding it as vertically as possible, move it over some scrap media with slight pressure. It's easiest to move it in a simple 5 pointed start. This give 6 pieces to weed and exposes the backing where the blade traveled.

The blade cuts with the tip and maybe a couple thousandths of an inch of edge. The rest of the edge is there simply to keep the tip in a known location. To check a blade for sharpness look at the tip under magnification. A loupe is handy. If, under magnification, the tip is rounded or flat or for whatever reason does not appear to come to an infinite point then it ought to be considered dull.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

If, under magnification, the tip is rounded or flat or for whatever reason does not appear to come to an infinite point then it ought to be considered dull.

I think you mean definite or finite point. an infinite point would be a circle and would not be sharp. Sorry it's my birthday I can correct. hahaa

 

[bob]

I think you mean definite or finite point. an infinite point would be a circle and would not be sharp. Sorry it's my birthday I can correct. hahaa

No I meant infinite. Infinitely small. Infinite in the sense that no matter how you magnify it, it's still a point.

It's unclear just what an infinite point in geometry, the context in which you seem to be replying, might be. Certainly not a circle.

 

[PHILJOHNSON]

Hello Upandup,

Read through your issues and have a few pointers. First, you definitely don't want to use a 45 degree and this particular angle is not designed for use with the Summa. There are specific knife offset values assigned to each blade type(36 degree and 60 degree for the Summa) which must be set correctly depending on which blade is being used. The default knife offset value for the 36 degree blades is 0.45mm, so you might check the settings to ensure the proper offset value has been assigned.

Also, others have posted that you don't want to see the "scoring" impression from the blade in the liner, which is not true. You most definitely want to see this impression in the liner, without the blade actually slicing into it. This ensures you have the proper pressure and depth combination based on the thickness of the material.

As was also mentioned, using a fresh sharp blade when possible will help as well. You might also slow down the speed(velocity) slightly to see if you get improved results. I have a lot of customers contour cutting similar laminated materials with the SummaCut models without issues, so I would think with a few small tweaks you should be able to get this dialed in and weeding better.

You are welcome to email me at philj@summa.us if you would like a hand getting this sorted out, or you can also contact our technical support team directly at (800)323-9766 for additional assistance.

Best regards,

Phil Johnson
Summa Inc.

 

[ActionGraphics]

Not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but didn't see it. Try letting your vinyl sit for a couple days after contour cutting it (if you can), before weeding it. Overlaminate will contract slightly over time, pulling the cuts apart and making it easier to weed. Worth a try. Personally I never have that problem. I use 3m 180ijcv3 and 3m 8518 laminate.