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Why not wet apply metalics?

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
I was looking at a Fellers catalog and on the page with all of the metallic vinyls there's a warning that none of the materials on that page should be applied wet?

Why? I seldom use metallics and even more seldom apply wet but why this universal admonition?
 

Dentafrice

New Member
Metalics and reflective tear quite easy vs anything else... maybe it's something to do with that? I've never figured out why places say that nor why they tear like that.
 

Circleville Signs

New Member
Why lay ANYTHING wet? I mean, yeah - it CAN be easier (though not always), but it never results in as good of a finished product...
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I know they give that information with the metallics, but we've also applied... not wet, but with a light mist on occasion.

They have some cockamamie story, but like everything else, I think they're just covering their butts against any probable problems that might arise and wet usually leaves bubbles behind and the metallics really are thin cast in most cases and will probably wrinkle when squeegeeing over them to get the bubbles out.
 
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MikePro

New Member
it was my understanding that metallics, which are basically a foil, do not allow moisture to evaporate from underneath the material... which regular vinyl allows, slightly, over time. Resulting in potential rusting to occur or, at the very least, bubbles to appear long after the installation.

that being said, I've wet-applied metallics to aluminum panels frequently in the past. The only issue is that the edges tend to not have an aggresive bond with the material until I go at it with a heat gun and a felt squeegee.
nowadays, I apply all my metallics dry.... i'm pretty darn good at it. no bubbles, no worries, no application fluid.
 
J

john1

Guest
I have applied reflective as well as metallics wet for over 6 years. No problems here using rapid tac and rapid tac II
 

HulkSmash

New Member
The foil doesn't allow the water to dry or evaporate. Why would you want to install it wet anyways?
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
By metallic do you mean metal flake or chrome?

No, I mean the plain old vanilla metallic vinyl like silver and gold etc. Like the Oracal 951M, Avery 900 metallic, 3M 180C metallic, and the like. Not the polyester film and holographic stuff.
 

signmeup

New Member
No, I mean the plain old vanilla metallic vinyl like silver and gold etc. Like the Oracal 951M, Avery 900 metallic, 3M 180C metallic, and the like. Not the polyester film and holographic stuff.
There is no "foil" in that stuff. Nothing bad will happen if you apply it wet... same as any other vinyl, reflective included.
 

TyrantDesigner

Art! Hot and fresh.
The only one you need to worry about rusting occuring from due to lack of evaporation is the same one that only has a 2 year max lifespan and will destroy your blades faster than rubbing them on an albino hobo named skippy-doooooo! Polyester vinyl. All the others are still a pvc rubber vinyl with either a grey pigmented adhesive or clear adhesive and will still allow for evaporation (including the ultra metallics ... large flakes). Reason why they put that half serious disclaimer is for as others have posted above ... wrinkling and tearing. just take your time and you will be fine. just don't do it on glass ... NEVER wet apply on glass.
 

signmeup

New Member
The only one you need to worry about rusting occuring from due to lack of evaporation is the same one that only has a 2 year max lifespan and will destroy your blades faster than rubbing them on an albino hobo named skippy-doooooo! Polyester vinyl. All the others are still a pvc rubber vinyl with either a grey pigmented adhesive or clear adhesive and will still allow for evaporation (including the ultra metallics ... large flakes). Reason why they put that half serious disclaimer is for as others have posted above ... wrinkling and tearing. just take your time and you will be fine. just don't do it on glass ... NEVER wet apply on glass.
Too late.
 
J

john1

Guest
You can wet apply on glass. I do it with Rapid tac 2 all the time. Works great.
 
oy vei.... i'm tired.... and feeling pretty lazy right now. i am not going to make a statement bold enough to say that there isn't a material out there that contains particles that may rust, there may be and i'm not going ot go and look through all of the data i have from every vinyl manufacturer. The regular issue is that occurs is that many of the films have a laminate that traps fluid underneath (unlike regular cast and calendared) which will eventually allow the fluid to work itself out.

The problem that you see (the black'nasti'ness) is not rust it is mold. I have been working with a chemist for years and we developed an application fluid that will allow you to install reflective, metallics, etc. without the 'mold' issue. however, the politics became much bigger than I ever could have imagined...and many manufacturer's would rather installers install dry just to avoid the potential of failure from hack installers who are not capable of installing properly wet or dry. As a result though a couple companies did incorporate specific properties that were in the application fluid that we developed and included those elements into their adhesives so that IF you were to disregard their application instructions mold would be unable to grow, unfortunately contractually I can not reveal which adhesive manufacturing / vinyl companies purchased these rights. It is my hope that someday they will also make the application fluid available that will allow you to install metallics, reflectives, etc., with out issue because it is available.

During development many members of this forum tested the various fluids as they evolved and I know of no one that had any complaints and found it to be FAR superior to what is currently on the market.

In an ideal world it could be sold SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper as a concentrate (so as not to ship "profital" / the chemical industry word for h20) however, this would require that everyone used distilled water because the ph varies more than I imagined throughout the country.

If someone is intrerested in pursuing this project, taking it to market, self distributing, whatever...let me know...it's another one of those projects I would love to see something happen with because there is great potential and it is better than ANYTHING else I have ever used...but unless a national distributor or a REALLY motivated individual has an interest I dont have the energy to peddle wetapp by the gallon.

It is completely professionally formulated (by a REAL Chemist lol), tested by REAL professionals in the sign industry, and everytime any of my local sign friends need application fluid they come take another bottle (and no I don't mix it up here...the real chemist does :)...and it doesn't have that funky chemical vanilla smell either...

anyone with big dreams, loads of energy, who needs a new project ... let me know...
 
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